Higher Ed Storytelling University

John Azoni: My guest today is Shane Baglini. Shane is the Senior Director of Marketing and Recruitment for the Division of Graduate and Continuing Education at Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, where he's responsible for all marketing and recruitment strategies.

John Azoni: A first generation college student, Shane is passionate about connecting students to the life changing possibilities of education through authentic storytelling and brand building. Shane, welcome to the show.

Shane Baglini: Thanks, John. Pleasure

John Azoni: to be here. Awesome. So first off, tell, tell us something. I like to ask, tell us something that people would be surprised to know about you.

John Azoni: Something personal.

Shane Baglini: Yeah. Okay. So two, two things. So I actually started my career working in [00:01:00] sports. Both of my, my masters and undergrad degrees are in sport management. Um, so I started off working in minor league baseball, uh, Olympic sports, collegiate sports. Um, and one of the, one of the funniest stories I always tell people is When I worked in, uh, professional sports, I was down in Philadelphia.

Shane Baglini: And we worked in, uh, the, the Sixers and Flyers arena. And our conference room windows overlooked the Eagles stadium. And I'll never forget one time during a, during a, uh, a meeting. We all kind of looked out the window and the circus was in town. And there were literal elephants and tigers and camels like being walked through the parking lot.

Shane Baglini: And that's, to this day, that's still the most memorable. Uh, meeting I've ever had. So if you could top, top that on these zoom calls, that'd

John Azoni: be great. I've never seen an elephant in one of my meetings. Yeah,

Shane Baglini: it was, it was great. And our, and the guy running the meeting said, you know, remember if you ever get stressed or overwhelmed, you work

John Azoni: at a place where [00:02:00] elephants are walking through the parking

Shane Baglini: lot.

Shane Baglini: So it was a cool, it was a cool moment. Um, and then on, you know, on the personal side, sticking with the sports theme, I'm a, I'm a lifelong diehard Miami Dolphins fan. People might be surprised by that because they're wondering how can somebody endure that kind of That kind of pain and angst for 35 consecutive years, but I

John Azoni: still do it every year Well, I live in Detroit and we have the Lions and that's the same thing here.

John Azoni: So you know my

Shane Baglini: pain better than

John Azoni: others. I don't, I actually like, I was never a sports person, but like I do love just like the culture of watching sports. It's something nostalgic about like when the weather starts turning cold and like Sunday, Sunday afternoon football. So I'll watch the Lions like when I can, uh, and I just.

John Azoni: I just like, and I'm like, I just expect they're going to lose. I actually had a streak for a while of like, anytime I tuned in, they would win. So I was like, all right, I guess, like, I guess this is my job now. I have a responsibility. [00:03:00]

Shane Baglini: Yeah, they got a good team this year. So you're going to have to, you got to be there for all 18

John Azoni: weeks.

John Azoni: Yeah. Um, cool. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Um, so tell us a little bit about, um, tell us about the marketing world that you live in. Your, your, uh, your world as adult students, uh, define like those students, what you mean by that. Um, yeah, just tell us a little bit about your role.

Shane Baglini: Sure. So, so I'll give you a kind of an overview of our department at Muhlenberg.

Shane Baglini: We are, uh, kind of like a mini college in and of ourselves. We've got, uh, faculty members that we hire. We've got advisors, financial aid dedicated to adult learners. Um, and, and Muhlenberg's been doing adult education for like 110 years now. So we've got a deep background in that. Um, in 2020, we launched our graduate school.

Shane Baglini: So we're, we're new to the graduate space, relatively. Um. So that's a kind of a brief overview, and then I'm sort of in charge of all the marketing and enrollment management functions in that division. [00:04:00] Um, adult student to me, probably like most others, I would consider an adult student somebody that's 25 or older.

Shane Baglini: Um, but I think the nuance for me, uh, and maybe for some others is sort of when we talk about that non traditional student. Um, I would consider pretty much anybody that hasn't gone on that. High school to college may, maybe a gap year in between type of trajectory. So people that are coming in with some college no degree, you know, no college, no degree, but are, have, you know, something's happened that they're, they're reentering school.

Shane Baglini: Um, I would consider those the non-traditional, um, students and I, and I think it's interesting to look around higher ed at how others are, are approaching adult learner, uh, recruitment, retention, et cetera. Um, I, you know, we, we've all known about the enrollment cliff for how long now it's, it's here. Um, and I still look around and don't [00:05:00] think there's enough resources, attention, learning around recruiting non traditional and adult learners, which is, which is interesting to

John Azoni: me.

John Azoni: Yeah, and uh, it seems to be like we're at a tipping point where like the non traditional students are the new traditional students. You know, where it's like, I saw someone, it might've been Ryan Morabito or someone posted on LinkedIn where it's like the adult students are like outnumbering. These traditional, um, college students coming out of high school, which is super interesting to

Shane Baglini: me.

Shane Baglini: Yeah, I love that phrase. I love that phrase. I might have to use it. The new traditional student. Yeah, I mean, go look at, go look around the higher ed conference landscape and, and look at a marketing and enrollment specific conference not called NAGAP. And I, I, I dare you to find an agenda with more than one session on recruiting adult learners.

Shane Baglini: Yeah. Um, so that, you know, I, I feel like we've. I don't, I don't know that we're prepared as [00:06:00] an industry for adult learners because we've thought of them in such a different way than we need to be right now for hundreds of

John Azoni: years. Yeah. So what are some unique challenges that adult students are coming into a graduation or continuing studies, uh, you know, situation with?

John Azoni: Yeah. So this

Shane Baglini: is where the adult student is really interesting to market to. I mean, just think about life, right? You know, life in and of itself, work, family, whatever else you have going on can be a challenge in and of itself. Now add, add school onto that, add going back for your master's degree onto that.

Shane Baglini: And, and it becomes, it seems like it might be overwhelming and not possible. So, you know, I feel like that's the place that I start from. With adult learners when we're, when we're messaging to them, when we're creating content, um, you know, just understanding the emotional kind of journey of going back to school is very [00:07:00] different for an adult student, graduate students, you know, they've kind of been there, done that, they know what to expect, they've, they've gone through undergrad, so they're kind of used to the whole process for, for somebody that is completing their degree.

Shane Baglini: You know, I've heard stories from our advisors of people being an hour late for a meeting because they were sitting in the car in the parking lot, debating whether or not to even come inside for the meeting. So you know, approaching the adult learner with that in mind is a great place to start, for me anyway, in terms of, okay, what's the most effective way to connect with these students?

John Azoni: Yeah, there's probably a different. emotional storm, you know, kind of going on. It's, it's, uh, I mean, most of my video work is actually with adult students. Um, and I don't know, there's not much of a rhyme or reason for that, but just in my experience of, you know, telling adult student stories, um, it's there, there's, it's different from, [00:08:00] uh, someone coming out of high school.

John Azoni: It's an adult students. They've, they've oftentimes hit a wall where like something needed to change. And then there's a lot of anxiety around, around that, whether or not they can get over this hurdle and make that change through, um, you know, upping their education and things like that. So it's, it's really a, um, a very specific kind of pain point that they're, that they're coming to college with.

John Azoni: Yeah. And I

Shane Baglini: think it's okay. I think we need to be okay as marketers to say, it's okay to admit this is going to be, this is going to be challenging because if we admit that. In our messaging, in our videos, in our website copy, whatever it might be, emails, we're already saying to the student, we understand what this feels like.

Shane Baglini: Um, and that's where I think it's important to, you know, any school with continuing education, graduate studies, things of that nature, I think it's important to have adult learners on staff, people that have gone that [00:09:00] non traditional route. Because it just presents a unique way to connect to those students.

Shane Baglini: You know, you're saying, I've been through this. I understand what you're feeling. And here's how I can sort of address some of your anxiety and your concerns.

John Azoni: Right, right. Yeah, um, It's uh, Oh, I was going to ask you something and it just totally slipped my mind. Um, Alright, I can't, I'll think of it, we'll come back to it.

John Azoni: Um, so, uh, so talk about the content that you guys create. How do you, uh, think about content creation in light of an adult learner?

Shane Baglini: Yeah, so definitely starting from that point of realizing this is an emotional rollercoaster. Um, you know, the excitement, we always think about the traditional age student.

Shane Baglini: The excitement of going back to school is something that's unique. For the adult learner, that excitement can, can be [00:10:00] overshadowed by nerves. You know, can I do this? Can I afford this? Is this going to interrupt my life? You know, all those questions that people ask themselves, we have to address those.

Shane Baglini: Where where those questions aren't necessarily being asked by by traditional students there, you know, they're they're excited for the journey. They want the experience. They want to be away from home. They want that change. Adult learners are doing this in spite of the ways it's going to change their life.

Shane Baglini: So we, you know, if we're not messaging in that way, if we're if we're saying this is going to be seamless, this is going to be easy. That then we're, that we're not telling the truth, to be frank, because it's not easy and it's not seamless, you're going to have to sacrifice some things. Um, but I think that authenticity and that openness goes a long way with, with the adult students.

Shane Baglini: Um, we, we just did a, we just did a video series, uh, of five [00:11:00] adult learners, alumni of ours. Um, and one of the things we really tried to convey in those videos. was how did it feel to come back to school? Not, you know, not what makes me look so great. I can do that anytime. Right. But how, how did it, how did you feel and how did we will work help address those feelings?

Shane Baglini: Um, one of our, one of our students, um, is one of the students we interviewed is a working mom. And at the time of coming back to school, she was She had a one year old, it was peak pandemic, and she was a, working full time, and she had, uh, she was one semester shy of graduating about ten years ago, and couldn't, couldn't get financial aid.

Shane Baglini: So she, so she stopped out. So this person was coming back to school after a decade, with all of those life circumstances going on. Um, and so, you know, when we interviewed her, we didn't ask her a single question about [00:12:00] You know, there's no need. She she's telling us that she did all of this during a pandemic with a one year old with a husband working full time.

Shane Baglini: That right there addresses all the things that we're trying to address the flexibility convenience. Exactly. She was able to afford it with that, you know, with all those extra expenses and things. So I think it's really important. More so with the adult student to tell those kind of personal stories. And that's what we really, we really focus on.

Shane Baglini: It's getting as many testimonials, quotes, you know, finding the good stories. They're easy to find with adult learners. Yeah. Um, so really just trying to connect one on one with people that are, that are, Maybe experiencing some of the same feelings. I think that's a great way to connect with your audience

John Azoni: Yeah, I remember what I was gonna say because you made a point about just honesty and And just it's okay to say that this is gonna be hard and I [00:13:00] just especially in the last year I appreciate and I trust Brands that are honest like that Especially like you you get like I get served all these like coaching ads in my social media feeds You know, they, they pick up that I'm a business owner, uh, and they are, um, you know, selling me some course or, or whatever, and everything they're pitching is, I made a million dollars overnight and you can too, and it will be easy.

John Azoni: It's essentially the, it's essentially the, the message that they're sending and, you know, in my experience of trying, you know, some of these courses, it's not. at all like that. Nothing, nothing is ever, nothing is ever easy. If someone is marketing this to you, like this is going to be turnkey for you. And, uh, and, and we're going to make, we're just going to take, like, we're going to take, uh, you know, everything off your plates can be so easy.

John Azoni: You're going to, you're going to, you know, wake up with a degree. I, I don't trust you. [00:14:00] No,

Shane Baglini: I, yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, you talk about like outcomes data. Where people are working, where, you know, their salary increases, all that kind of stuff. That's great and that means a lot to the adult learner and the graduate learners, but failing to communicate that, how that person got there and, and what that was like for them, I think is missing a huge opportunity to be really authentic and say, this was, this was really challenging.

Shane Baglini: You know, to do all this is really challenging. But look at, look at the ROI, look at the outcome that, that happened here. So I think you can, I think you need to focus on, on all parts of that story, not just look at where our graduates are employed and with a, with a nice grid of logos on your website, that's great.

Shane Baglini: Right. But that's, that's only half the story.

John Azoni: Yeah, there's this really good book that I, uh, just read, uh, I can't remember what it's called. I never remember what the books are called. If you listen to this podcast more than a few [00:15:00] episodes, you'll know that I'm always getting stuck on what these books are called.

John Azoni: Uh, but I read a book and it was about content marketing and what I appreciated so much about the author was his perspective that from page one, he said, this is going to be hard. Um, you're not going to see any traction probably for like eight or nine months. Maybe a year. It depends on, you know, how, how much you're willing to put it.

John Azoni: You might have to put in like 20 hours a week into this, into this effort that you might not see direct. Results from for another year. Are you willing to do that? If you are here's here's the road map um, and for me that was like that was so um, Validating because I you know, i'm a content marketer. I work with schools who are doing content and um, I What I what I think I I kind of Um, my thing is I like to bring schools like higher ed marketers along with me and my business journey because I feel like I'm on the same trajectory as, as all of them, just, [00:16:00] just for a different purpose and content marketing, it's tough.

John Azoni: Like it doesn't always work storytelling doesn't always work and you'll hit these walls where you're like, I'm putting content out every day I'm telling stories I'm doing all the things that they're saying I'm supposed to do I'm doing the emotional thing, and it's not working. Uh, you know, no one's. No one's signing up.

John Azoni: No one's, you know, filling out an application to our school, you know, whatever. And, and I think it's, I think it's important. It's an important thing to, to address that, um, uh, these, these types of things are, are, are, you have to be honest about what the commitment really, really is about. And honestly, like I, I, I feel more validation and I trust a brand more that is honest about, uh, you know, not just painting everything in a rosy light that, you know, our brand is perfect.

John Azoni: It's going to be great. You know, you're not going to struggle here. Um, but, uh, but I appreciate, I appreciate that. And that's why I think stories are really, um, really effective is that you're not pitching, you're just telling a very, [00:17:00] you're telling a story of struggle. And I think that that's why, that's what I really encourage schools to do is like, look for where the pain is, look for where the struggle is, adult students.

John Azoni: Yeah, I mean, like you said, they're everywhere. It's easy to find because like a college student, like a traditional college student coming out of high school, that's just, they're just like flowing down that river, you know, like at least for me, like that was just since I could remember, I knew I was going to go to college, you know, a lot of first generation college students that might not be the case.

John Azoni: So that's where an opportunity for storytelling is, but usually an adult student, like, yeah. It's like there's something interesting going on like you're you're going back to school like what's going, what, why, what's going on, where, where's, what's, let's talk about that and let's talk about how that's going to be tough to fit that into your life when you're eighteen, nineteen, that's just your life.

John Azoni: Right. That's just, you just go from living at home to now living at college and going to different classes and uh, you know, and and so, but when you're an adult, I [00:18:00] can't imagine, you know, I've two kids. And I already feel like if I want to do anything extra, I'm getting up at four in the morning or I'm staying up until 11, 12 at night to get it done.

John Azoni: And, uh, the stories that I've, you know, told of adult students, a lot of times are like that. It's just like you have to do it in these fringe hours and it's not easy, but, uh, but it's worth it.

Shane Baglini: Yeah. And it's a great point. Two of my employees, um, have recently just started coursework for their master's degrees.

Shane Baglini: Um, You know, their kids are out of the house, they've, it's, but it's, it's something that they wanted to do, but life got in the way. And, and even, you know, they work, they're, they're, they're studying at Muhleberg and they work at Muhleberg and it's still, they were anxious and a little bit trepidatious about it.

Shane Baglini: So imagine being from the outside, coming in, being out of school for, you know, in some cases, 20, 30 years and coming back to get a degree or finish your bachelor's. That's an intimidating thing. To [00:19:00] be in a college classroom again with, in some cases, with 17, 18, 19 year olds is a really, it's an intimidating thing as an adult.

Shane Baglini: And so, yeah, I agree. Addressing those challenges up front is a great way to create authenticity.

John Azoni: It's like Adam Sandler and Billy Madison going back to high school. That's right. That's right. I would, yeah, I would totally feel like that. I would be like, I am... I was cool when I was in college. I am not cool anymore.

John Azoni: No. So I just gotta find a way to like, stay out of the way. Right.

Shane Baglini: And that's why it's so different to market to adult learners. You know, the campus experience, facilities, um, dining, recreation. Those things, they may be important to some, but most adult students are using this degree. As a means to some sort of end of improvement to a better [00:20:00] job, career advancement, completing a lifelong goal, pursuing their passion.

Shane Baglini: So it's a very different, different way to sell your, your, your institution. And I, and I, one of the reasons I mentioned the conference sessions and things like that is because, you know, we're so used to selling the experience of undergraduate traditional age college. So pivoting to a completely different set of values for adult students is a challenge.

Shane Baglini: And I, you know, I'm not sure many institutions are ready to face it head on. I think we're just hoping, yeah, we have these programs. Let's hope students show up and

John Azoni: enroll. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and tell me how you guys have kind of differentiated. this, uh, you know, these programs that you, that you, cause when we were talking in our pre interview, in our pre interview, you were talking about how differentiation kind of looks a little [00:21:00] bit different.

John Azoni: It's more, it's more about, it's not so much differentiating based on like the logic of what you're providing. It's more about, you know, the emotional side of things. Just tell me a little bit about that. Yeah.

Shane Baglini: So, so I think the biggest thing for me, um, would be just listening to what your stakeholders are.

Shane Baglini: Are saying is important to them? Um, I think, I think being open to feedback from students from, from, to me, some of the most valuable feedback I could ever get is from students that like applied or required but did not enroll because that just tells me where we're, where we're maybe lacking. Um, so I think the easiest way to differentiate when we're talking about any age group of student is, is stakeholder feedback, voice of the customer research.

Shane Baglini: And then acting on that research and sometimes that means changing a program structure, changing cost of tuition, changing how we're offering the program. Um, so I think just hearing pain points and [00:22:00] hearing why somebody might have chosen another school, I think it's a great way to differentiate it. And, and, you know, your, your programs at the end of the day need to be competitive.

Shane Baglini: Especially with adult learners, um, which, which I think we'll probably get into a little bit more in detail later on, but, you know, the quality of academics is still really important to our students. Muhlenberg has an excellent reputation, um, for quality academics. So that's, especially on the graduate side of things, that's something that, that students still find incredibly valuable.

Shane Baglini: Um, but on the, you know, on, on the whole. We're all kind of, we're all kind of doing the same thing, you know, everybody's got, we actually don't have an MBA, but everybody's got an MBA. Everybody's got a master's in public health or an MFA. But how, what makes your school different? And I think that's where the emotional piece comes into it.

Shane Baglini: I think that's where, you know, displaying and talking about how your institution [00:23:00] solved some of those pain points is, is an incredibly valuable tool to use when communicating to adult students. You know, any think of anything. I couldn't afford it. I didn't have enough time. I have three kids and I need to be at their, you know, T ball games.

Shane Baglini: Anything that you can think of, how did Muhlenberg sort of allow you to fit that into your life? And also complete your degree or get your master's degree. So I think communicate, taking that voice of the customer research and then explaining, here's how Muhlenberg can help you solve these things. and address your concerns, uh, is, is probably, in terms of storytelling, is, is probably the most powerful way that I, I can think of differentiating one institution versus another.

Shane Baglini: When we're talking about, you know, pretty close to apples to apples type of offerings.

John Azoni: Yeah. That's perfect. Cause I, yeah, when, when, when we're talking apples to apples, um, it's, yeah, it really is. I think the [00:24:00] next level of differentiation is. is, is, is telling those stories and telling them better, you know, than, than other, uh, schools.

John Azoni: Um, you know, because if you, if, if you can hook someone with a story, like, you know, it's not enough just to tell a story, like you have to get someone to watch it and watch it all the way through. So if you can do that better and leave them with an emotional dent, you know, uh, of your brand on their psyche or whatever, um, that's, that's a differentiator, um, you know.

Shane Baglini: Yeah, and I think I think one important point to make would be that doesn't always mean having the biggest budget of any of any school, right? You know, find, find a, you know, if you've got a videographer on staff, great. If you don't find an agency or firm that either maybe somebody is an adult learner, maybe they're, I like to look for firms that specialize in like documentary style work because I know that we can tell a story.

Shane Baglini: Right.[00:25:00]

Shane Baglini: Um, and that doesn't mean we have to, we have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this crazy video campaign. We can, you know, we can spend modestly and, and still really tell compelling stories.

John Azoni: Yeah. Yes. For people listening, I, I, uh, really vibe with that because there are two. There's kind of two camps.

John Azoni: Well, I would say three camps, a videographer or videographer as you go up in the camps, you can't say videographer anymore, filmmaker. Uh, you know, so, but there's like the, the, the solo, like kind of freelancer videographer, one man band. kind of thing, just does everything, audio, everything, asks the questions while the cameras are on tripods, you know, all that stuff.

John Azoni: Um and then there's kind of like the maybe middle ground. Then, on the other end of the spectrum, there's there's like the commercial agencies where you can't [00:26:00] get an interview shot for less than 10, 000. You know, and um, I know because I have to be, when I'm hiring crew around the country, um, cause that's how we, that's how we work with schools all, all over is, is we partner with uh, crews that we've vetted, um, and I'm always the same like you said, I'm looking for that, that, that crew that understands documentary, um, and, and understands kind of a run and gun approach because we're, we're not going to have 10, 000 to have, you have 10 people on set to film an interview.

John Azoni: That would look just as good if I hired the right person to do it by himself, you know, um, so, so yeah,

Shane Baglini: cost does not equal quality all the time, right?

John Azoni: It does not. Um, yeah, so there's, yeah, so there's those, those two extremes. And then there's somewhere in the middle where, where I think, you know, there's small, small crews type stuff.

John Azoni: And that's kind of where I, I kind of, I kind of lean. I think you can get a lot of value out of it. Um, I'm [00:27:00] not saying there there's incredible value in hiring a full crew commercial production. It's a different world, um, to, to step onto a set and step into a, a mode of, of pre production and production and post production that is very like in, in quote unquote, the right way to do it.

John Azoni: Like, like that's the traditional way to get a video made or a commercial made is to have 50 people involved and all doing one different thing. And it's, and it's. For an agency, huge budget stuff, you need that. You can't have one guy running around, you know, filming a Pepsi commercial, uh, with his iPhone.

John Azoni: There's too much at stake there. Uh, but when we're talking about, um, you know, just day to day content creation and doing quality storytelling, you can do a lot of quality storytelling with an outside agency by finding that right sort of niche that's gonna understand how to get a commercial look.

John Azoni: Without a commercial crew, right? [00:28:00] Yeah. Yeah. And I think

Shane Baglini: from one important point, I would add to that would be from the students perspective, you know, walking onto it. We did another video series a couple of years back in a different institution with similar students and good stories. But the set and the agency we hired, they did fantastic work, but it was it was a production.

Shane Baglini: I mean, there was from the stuff that people are not used to. So walking onto that set, every single student, including our president, which we did an interview with her, every single person's reaction was, Oh, wow, this is, this is camera action. Well, that, that immediately then for that student or that interviewee is intimidating.

Shane Baglini: Right. So, so now we're losing a little bit of authenticity. Whereas If you're getting a smaller crew, and who knows, maybe you as the marketer or somebody has to ask the questions or do the interview. There's a level of connection that you can build by having a [00:29:00] smaller operation that I think makes it a little bit more intimate as well.

John Azoni: Yeah, students of any age coming on to a, coming in to film an interview, I would say, my experience is the same. Almost all of them are surprised at how much more gear there is to film. They thought it was going to be a guy with a little, um, you know, camcorder on a little dinky tripod, and they were just going to like point it at them and ask them questions like that.

John Azoni: There's like lights and there's like a microphone and stuff like that. So like that's something that you do have to be really cognizant of and I did Some work for University of Michigan Ross School of Business several years ago through my previous production company I worked at and the the the Head videographer there was super smart and he was like we're gonna bring these students in and I don't want to see you guys Like, we were like on the, on the edges of this, this, this, [00:30:00] uh, room that we were in.

John Azoni: It was like a big, it, it, Ross School of Business has like a big atrium that's like gorgeous and there's like students milling about and eating and studying and stuff. So we could kind of blend in. Um, but we were like way out of the way because they didn't, they didn't want that to affect these students interacting with each other and having this, because they were doing kind of like a, um, Like if you see like on reality TV, they sit down and talk about something, you know, you know, um, so, uh, they're, they're trying to do that.

John Azoni: So yeah, it's, it's sometimes it is, it is, it is a strategic move to, um, to, uh, simplify. Yeah. And,

Shane Baglini: and, you know, not to belabor the point, but most students, especially traditional students, but even adult learners are used to interacting with the camera on their phone and, and either just themselves or a friend or family member.

Shane Baglini: So, so having a 12 person crew with three cameras and a, you know, a camera on a, on a movable track and a stylist and all this stuff is, is, yeah, it's overwhelming and I think it loses authenticity from, from [00:31:00] the second they walk in the room.

John Azoni: Yeah, there's so many tools available, the barrier entry for video is so low that everyone wants to be Steven Spielberg and I see some of these videos where I'm like, dude, come on, just, just ask the question, stop sliding the camera all over the place.

John Azoni: Anyway, this is not a podcast about, uh, hiring video, uh, videographer, but on that note. You and I were vibing in our pre interview about video cliches. Uh, and so I want to talk about that cause it kind of relates to differentiation. And we were talking about how, you know, when you go like to someone's YouTube page, it's like the same video at the top of the, tell me like what, let's play a game.

John Azoni: So like the game would be if I never see blank in a college video, uh, Ever again, I will be happy. What is the blank? What are the blanks for you?

Shane Baglini: How long do we have for this interview? Um, yeah, you know, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple. You know, lab coats, [00:32:00] bunts and burners, um, stock footage of a boardroom.

Shane Baglini: Things like that. No offense to the presidents out there, but I think in a marketing video, why is the president in the video? Yes. Things like that. And of course, I'm being a little tongue in cheek, but, you know. And then the scripts themselves, I think. Are, you know, you can always tell when a script has been written, uh, and, and looked at by dozens of people, uh, because there's, you know, there's like this grandiose poetic sort of prose that, that is absolutely not connecting with a 17 year old.

John Azoni: No,

Shane Baglini: absolutely. Um, so those are, I mean, I, I just think, you know, in general, um, I think the concept You know, the Saturday afternoon college football promo that schools get that are on TV. You know, trying [00:33:00] to address every single audience you possibly can in a 30 second video. It just becomes, you know, we can only address so many audiences in one video before it just becomes noise with nice drum shots of campus.

Shane Baglini: So I think in general I would challenge higher ed to... Focus on more, um, personal, granular video subjects, you know, and that, you know, think of your student personas, everybody's got them, everybody has them made and written down. So, so are we addressing those personas with the video that we're making? Does this person, you know, in the planetarium address the first generation student that is a Pell student?

Shane Baglini: Yeah. Yeah. Um, that, you know, their, their parents biggest concern is, how am I going to pay for this? I don't want my, my, you know, I don't want my student to have student loan debt for the rest of their life. Does [00:34:00] that stock footage of the B roll, of the B roll of the, the boardroom, does that footage of the president, you know, meeting and greeting, does that address that?

Shane Baglini: Or can we, can we use the president in another way to do a sit down type of message to, to address some of those concerns? Yeah. So I would say in, in general, that sort of broad. Grandiose university spot is, is, you know, I, I just don't know, maybe it's landing, maybe it's not. But to me as a marketer watching some of that, it's just kind of, it's overdone, it is, um, it's not authentic.

Shane Baglini: Uh, so I'd rather, I'd rather see people focus on those kind of personal connections and making a video for one person because that one person. Hundreds of people that are experiencing the

John Azoni: same thing. Yeah. I, I really tuned into that too. Like I, I'm too lazy to get in my car and like turn on carplay and then like open up, you know, Amazon [00:35:00] music and put on, so I listened to the radio a lot.

John Azoni: It's just faster. It's just ready made. And so I listened to a lot of radio ads and. I'm always tuned in to the scripts that are, um, well, I'm actually tuned out of the scripts. I'm tuned in to why I'm tuned out of them. Because the, these scripts for these companies, it's a bank, it's a, a college, it's a whatever, it's, and it's, and it's this poetic, and you don't have any visuals to, to, to supplement that, so you're just listening to this sort of emotive song and this poetic thing, and like, I, yeah, exactly.

John Azoni: It's this sounds like it has been filtered through 12 people who don't understand marketing, you know, like you, you, you, it sounds really inspiring to you. Um, but that's not going to like, it's not believable. I'm always just, I'll flip the station. Like if someone starts talking in a scripted poetic way by, you know, cause I know it's not authentic and that's not to say that you never do [00:36:00] that in a, in a video.

John Azoni: Um, it, especially creating like a broadcast spot where you've got 30 seconds, uh, and you're paying tons of money to be, have this thing air on TV. It's got to kind of, it's got to cast a wide net. Um, you gotta think strategically about, about how to do that in a way that's not just like, okay, yeah, heard this before.

John Azoni: Um, so yeah, I just be very scripting things. Cause whether it's, whether it's Gen Z, whether it's an adult, an adult student. People see right through that.

Shane Baglini: Yeah, when I was at the community college level, we were, we were trying to, like everybody, do something that would catch people's attention. Um, and I don't know if you're familiar, maybe like five years ago, there were those Microsoft AI commercials with Common, the rapper.

Shane Baglini: And he was on a stage in like a theater, it was empty. But we wanted to recreate something like that, so much so that I actually reached out to Common's agency. So [00:37:00] if He never got back to us.

John Azoni: Still

Shane Baglini: waiting. See if he would do something pro bono. But we found a student in the theater program, um, that could sort of pull off that vibe.

Shane Baglini: And one of the things we really wanted to do was address this idea of community college being a place where people are settling. Um, so the theme was it's not just community college anymore, and we talked about, you know, there were Pulitzer Prize winners, there were CEOs, there's an Oscar winner that graduated from there.

Shane Baglini: So kind of addressing all those things. So we still touched on a lot of audiences, but we did it in a way that is, I think, different from those, those kind of grandiose videos. We did it in a, in a, in a little bit more of a, hopefully a cutting edge way. Yeah. So that was one that, that I think I'm proud of.

Shane Baglini: Some of the best scripts I've ever written are based on some of the stuff I just told you about, but I don't want to see the videos. So it's, it's interesting to look around, especially as a higher ed marketer, to look around and [00:38:00] see some of these videos that are winning awards and things like that. And just wondering to yourself, who's that, who's that video for?

John Azoni: Who is this for? Exactly. That's what I ask all the time. I swear that question goes off in my mind every day. Who is this for? You know, I'm like scrolling on, uh, I don't know. I'm just very clued into like, cause I, cause I think about it for, you know, for my business and for this podcast and it's just stuff that I mull over a lot.

John Azoni: And I'm, I'm always scrolling going like, why did I like that? Why didn't I like that? This felt like it was trying to be directed at me, but it totally wasn't, you know, it's a lot easier and, you know, granted, it's way easier to be on the outside, looking in at a commercial or piece of advertising and being able to pick it apart.

John Azoni: I can do that all day long. But meanwhile, I'm probably putting out content. That is going against everything I'm saying, cause I'm so close to it. Uh, so yeah, so I want to be, I want to be careful, not be too critical because it really is difficult when you're, when [00:39:00] you're writing a script or whatever, and maybe you're trying to address an adult student, uh, it is, it is tough to get outside of yourself and, and really get a sense for what an adult student is going to, uh, to resonate with.

John Azoni: Um, but like, I mean, some, some things like. I would say like, like I want schools to go like, what, what could we, what could we, what would the commercial look like if we didn't, if we couldn't mention our school's name, you know, uh, you know, could it be like you were mentioning, you know, someone on theater or something like that, like what if someone was in like Hamilton or something like that and they, and they did, they were just on a stage by themselves and they just did a little.

John Azoni: Cool little performance. It's like hip hop and like cool. And then at the end it was just like graduate of, well, then you'd have to mention the school, but we won't count that. Graduate, graduate of such and such. This is the year. And then you're just like, oh my gosh, that person [00:40:00] became that. Like that's, that's so much more powerful than saying you can be this great thing.

John Azoni: You're going to get a job after, after school. Like show me, don't tell me kind of thing. Yeah.

Shane Baglini: Yeah, I agree a hundred percent.

John Azoni: Um, so what, uh, what are some stories that it's like, tell me some, tell me some stories. You've told me some already that, but like that your team has told that you felt like really resonated with the adult learner, help, help, uh, listeners to understand like what's, what's working.

John Azoni: Yeah.

Shane Baglini: So it's really, it's, I think you mentioned it's, it's usually the stories of, of challenges, I think. I think that's something that really resonates with people. Everybody, everybody is, is experiencing life challenges every day. Yeah, I mentioned the working mom that, that had the one year old. Um, one of the most, one of the, and, and where the video is actually being produced now, this student, but we did an article on this student, one of the most incredible people I've ever, I've ever come across.

Shane Baglini: She is a, [00:41:00] uh, mother of four. She is a... Uh, I don't know, I forget her exact rank offhand in the military, but she's a 20 year military veteran. Um, she came back to Nuremberg after, uh, leaving the military to finish her bachelor's degree. And then went immediately into graduate school. Uh, so, she's got a job, she's a working mom of four.

Shane Baglini: Military veteran. Um, and for her, for our graduate programs, we have this capstone project, almost, almost like a, um, a full year long project that students work on with real, real companies, um, solving problems that they have. Her capstone project was, uh, it was called refreshing the force, retraining, um, suicide intervention officers in the military.

Shane Baglini: Uh, she was a suicide intervention officer. Um, and she had this experience that a friend of [00:42:00] hers, a fellow, a fellow, uh, service member was in crisis. Um, she was the person that she called, um, luckily this person is still with us. She was able to assist, but in that situation, she, she realized that she, her training that she received 10 years ago was not, was not up to, up to today's standards.

Shane Baglini: So that's where she came up with this idea. And that idea, which turned into a graduate capstone project, turned into a project that was picked up for funding by the Pennsylvania National Guard. Wow. Um, yeah, so, I mean, talk about impactful work and outcomes and things like that, but she's, yeah, she's one of the most incredible people I've ever spoken to, so that one really jumps to mind.

Shane Baglini: That's really cool. But again, it's a story of somebody with immense challenges in their life. Uh, and, and it's somebody who's extremely busy, extremely accomplished, but still wanted to do this, this thing that she had never gotten a chance to [00:43:00] do. Um, and so I think those are the ones that, that really resonate.

Shane Baglini: Uh, another, another one we're working on is, uh, he's, uh, I think he graduated last year, but he was out of college for like 30 years. And came back to finish his bachelor's degree and it was actually supposed to be a surprise for his family. They, they didn't know that he was doing it. Oh, cool. Um, so that was a really cool story to tell too.

Shane Baglini: But I think it's just those, people achieving something in the face of a challenge is, is, can be really impactful.

John Azoni: I would watch those all day long. I would go on a, if I was learning, or trying to go back to school and I was learning about a school, I would watch, I would just binge a bunch of those. Yeah.

John Azoni: Like that to me is interesting, like I want to know.

John Azoni: I want to know I want to know if I can, you know, can I see myself achieving these results? Um, and, and it's totally, that's totally different than just talking about, than just talking about your school and putting drone shots over, [00:44:00] over top of it. Right.

Shane Baglini: Right. I mean, you know, the message of caring, dedicated faculty and staff takes on a new meeting when you've got people in those kinds of circumstances.

Shane Baglini: Exactly. And, and it, you know, like we said before, right. It may not be somebody's exact scenario, but somebody seeing another student overcome those types of challenges might make their, their trepidation or their anxiety about going back to school seem, seem minor. You know, Hey, if this, if this person could do this with a, you know, with four kids or working during COVID with a, with a one year old, then I think I can too.

John Azoni: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, cool. Let's see. The last question here would be, um, Can you put a bow on it for us? So, schools that are, schools that are, uh, have a growing adult population or an established one, um, they want to put into practice some of these things that we talked about today. Like, what would you be, what would be some, uh, you know, a couple of key takeaways?

John Azoni: Yeah,

Shane Baglini: so I think one would be [00:45:00] listen to your students. Listen to their feedback, positive and negative. Uh, and then, and then put that feedback into action. Don't just, don't just do surveys and things like that for to check a box, but use the surveys as, I mean, these are people that experienced your program and your institution firsthand.

Shane Baglini: Uh, it, you know, that's, that's better than any sort of anecdotal faculty and staff feedback that we, that we always hear. So that would be one. And then two, I think, I think again, just start from a place of understanding that this. Uh, is not the same as a traditional student going to college. Yeah. You know, think back to that time.

Shane Baglini: It's the most exciting time of your life to that point. Fast, fast forward 20 years and it's a really nerve wracking thing. So I think really separating those two audiences. And the emotions they're feeling are, are incredibly

John Azoni: important. [00:46:00] Yes, I agree. I love the, I love the, the, the charge about listening.

John Azoni: Cause you know, we talked about that a lot on this podcast. If you're, if you're not listening, you're, you're not getting stories. And if you're not having stories, you have no storytelling, you know, you know, strategy. Um, so yeah, if you're, if all you're doing is surveys, that's not going to give you the, the, what would it be qualitative data that you, that you need in order to really understand the emotions behind that, that data and where someone is coming from.

John Azoni: So I love that. Yeah. Um, okay, cool. So where can, uh, where can people connect with you? Sure.

Shane Baglini: Yeah. So I'm, I'm still on Twitter. I'm not, I'm not going to call it X. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, Elon, I'm not going to do it. Uh, at, at Shane underscore Baglini. And then, uh, you can just find me on LinkedIn at Shane Baglini or feel free to shoot me an email.

Shane Baglini: Shane Baglini

John Azoni: at muehlberg. edu. Awesome. I wonder when people are going to start calling Facebook meta. Well, I

Shane Baglini: mean, unlike, unlike, uh, [00:47:00] X, meta did not change the name of their most popular

John Azoni: product. Are they keeping it Facebook?

Shane Baglini: Well, I mean, I think it's still called Facebook, but like, think about like Alphabet with Google.

Shane Baglini: Okay, okay. I think that's the general

John Azoni: concept. I thought they were going to change Facebook to Meta, and I was like, oh boy, that's never, that's never

Shane Baglini: going to happen. No, yeah, neither is X. I'll call it Twitter until it no longer exists, which might be sooner than we

John Azoni: think. Cool. Well, Shane, thanks for being here.

John Azoni: I really, really loved our conversation. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, likewise, John. Thanks

Shane Baglini: for having me.