Higher Ed Storytelling University

updated
===

[00:00:00] Um, like what's something that people would be surprised to know about you. Did I tell you that on our pre call? You did, you did not, but it's okay. I was on a podcast a couple of days ago and they had this lightning round of like seven questions had, didn't have them at all ahead of time and they were not softballs.

That's I'm, that's like, you know, as much as I interview people, I really need the, like. to send the questions ahead. You need the sheet. You need like the like stock sheet. You can send everybody to be like, listen, put your headphones on, do this, do that. Um, so there shouldn't be any, there shouldn't really be any, uh, curve balls here.

So it's pretty much in line with what we talked about. Yeah. I, you know, that'll be, that's interesting. So we had, um, someone on here was in gym class, uh, in high school with Brad Pitt and Brad Pitt signed his yearbook. Um, we had another person that was, uh, How do you set the bar so high? Uh, the person I interviewed last week is just [00:01:00] a big fan of King of the Hill.

Um, you know, so I got, I got one. It takes, I mean, I'll try to be quick with it, but I got one. Yeah, I got one. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh, if, if I were on a podcast, for me, it's people would be surprised to know that I make handmade tobacco pipes, uh, in my wood shop. So. I mean, I think having a wood shop is enough.

Like, you could just be like, I have a wood shop, you know? Good. Um, all right, cool. You ready? Yeah. No, hit me. Okay. All right. My guest today is Eric Stoller. Eric is the VP of digital at Territorium with over 20 years in higher education and ed tech. He's a strategist, writer and thought leader, and he founded and led a global.

Higher education consultancy from 2010 to 2019 and created the student affairs and technology blog for inside higher ed. Uh, previous ed tech roles include leadership positions at list ed tech element four [00:02:00] 51 and gecko engage. And earlier in Eric's career, he was an academic advisor at Oregon state university, Oregon, not Oregon.

As we've, uh, power out ahead of this, ahead of this episode. Uh, and also a marketing specialist at university of Illinois at Chicago. Eric has earned an associate's degree, a BA in communications and an EdM in college student services administration. And so among all these things, Eric has a lot of great insight into this idea of the value of higher education and skills based economy.

And so we're going to be talking all about that. today, what maybe needs to change about the traditional role of higher education in a person's life and how our messaging and storytelling needs to align with those potential changes. So Eric, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Oh, thanks for having me so much, John.

And thank you so much for pronouncing both my last name and Oregon correctly. Yes. We were discussing before we started recording that, uh, you know, it, it [00:03:00] immediately defines who you are as a person if you say Oregon. Uh, so we, we want to be, we want to be in the know here. We want to be one of the cool kids.

So we're saying, well, I used to say it the wrong way. I used to live in Chicago. I went from Chicago to Oregon. And I, you know, immediately had to stop using the horn when people didn't start pulling away quickly enough from, from green lights. Um, you know, I was much, I was much too rude and obnoxious for my big city life.

So, uh, yeah, you, you learn many things when you, when you live in Oregon. Yeah. And, uh, the, the few times I've been to New York city, I noticed that like, I, I almost want to just like have a horn. As I'm walking just to, just to blow the horn, like for no reason. It's just, everybody's like, if you exist, you're getting, you're getting honked at.

And honestly, if you blink, if you blink when the light changes, you know, forget it, you're, you're, they're going to start hitting the horn immediately. And, and, and, you know, everyone has to be like, uh, you know, I don't know, like a formula one driver or whatever, like you really have to be ready to go. Yeah.

Yeah. That was, that was the impression I got. [00:04:00] Um, okay. So, uh, Eric, tell us, uh, what's something, uh, to kick us off here. What's something that people would be surprised to learn about you? Well, you know, John, you were telling me ahead of our, our podcast conversation here in the prep call, you were saying, you know, here's some things that other people have said, and they set the bar ridiculously high.

And I thought to myself, you know, I, I don't have a lot of surprises. I've sort of, Lived my life as it were on social media, but the one thing I guess maybe people would be surprised about is, um, I once had dinner accidentally with Taylor Swift, uh, in Boston. Totally by accident. Uh, I was at this restaurant in the north end of Boston.

It was, uh, just kind of a hole in the wall, super small place, uh, delicious food. I'm sitting there eating, you know, dinner. And these people walk in this couple and I, this was years ago. And, you know, obviously I knew of Taylor Swift. She's a, you know, international celebrity musician. Just everyone knows her, right.

Just sells out, uh, every, everywhere she goes. [00:05:00] And I have heard. Yeah, exactly. You know, you may have heard of her, but she she walks in and I'm like, I know her. A friend I'm with goes, that's Taylor Swift, you know, because I'm trying to think anyway. So we come in this restaurant. They literally sit like right next to us.

And the owners of the restaurant, they like lock the place down. No one else in. They literally pull the blinds down. Um, and so we're all eating in there and Taylor Swift is in there and so I, I tweeted out later on, you know, uh, back when Twitter was still a thing in many ways, um, I guess you call it X now and I tweeted out, you know, you know, you're in a good place in Boston when Taylor Swift walks in and.

A few days later I get this call from people magazine and they wanted to interview me and I'm in people magazine quoted as saying I had dinner with Taylor Swift, which is, you know, um, something I never thought, uh, I was going to be, uh, in a magazine of all things for, wow. So if you just show up to like the heiress.

To her, uh, playing in your town, did she [00:06:00] just let you in? She just, oh, it's, it's me, we had dinner one time. Clearly, right, no, I mean, I, no songs were written about me, and there'd be absolutely no recognition, all, it would probably be the, oh, you're one of those annoying people that, that, you know, outed my position, uh, you know, when I'm just trying to have a quiet night out.

I'm like, I'm just like incredibly awkward and I feel so awkward around celebrities. I'm the type of person that would like avoid a celebrity because I would say something dumb. Case in point, so there is a book that I read by this author Shane Claiborne, um, who back in like the late aughts was a big deal in the Christian community.

Yeah, social justice movement. Um, so he was a big part, this book that he wrote was a big part of why, um, you know, I left college, started working with the homeless and, and, and all this stuff, which eventually led to a video career. Um, so he's in town, uh, last night for, um, us, us talk. He's doing at a church that my mom goes to.

My mom comes over my [00:07:00] house. She's like, you'd be jealous. Shane's sleeping over. at my house tonight and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I can't, I can't, I'm not coming over. You have to find an excuse. No, you have to find an excuse to figure out a way to, you know, like, Hey, I brought something, you know, what is it?

Yeah, I guess I'm just like, I'm like, I'm coming home from the gym last night. I'm all sweaty. I'm like, should I stop by? My mom lives like three minutes from my house and I'm like, should I stop by? No, I'm like gross. And also I don't want to be like. By the time he's like... Just relaxing at my mom's house.

He's probably in a relaxation mode. He doesn't want another person to talk to well That's when you come in and say, you know, hey mom I'm just coming to collect that box of stuff that I left at the house that I've never picked up before It's just been waiting for this exact moment in time. Yeah, anyway, I so I don't know he might he might be gone by now But I missed my opportunity But hopefully my mom communicated how much you know, his books changed my life.

So But yeah, [00:08:00] I'm too scared to go over there. Well, I mean honestly I used to live in London and, you know, you walk by celebrities all the time and, and it's really, really interesting and awkward, you know, uh, what's his name? The guy who's in Pirates of the Caribbean, uh, is it Bill Nye, the actor? Um, I think he played the guy with like the octopus on his face or whatever.

Bill Nye the science guy. No, I'm not Bill Nye the science guy, the actor, the actor. Oh, I didn't know there was an actor. Okay. Yeah. He, um, he's always walking around and I, you know, I walked right past him and it was just, I just wanted to, I don't, I don't know what to say. Like, what do you say? Like, well, hello.

Nice. But, but you know, and we're strangers. And so, uh, you just keep walking or, um, yeah, there was an actor from the, this, uh, this series with the sons of anarchy. And, um, I got him confused with the lead actor in that show, Vikings. Uh, these two guys like blonde with beards, they looked very similar. And I was like, were you in that show?

We're in the grocery store, like a little local grocery store in London, the heart of London. And he goes to me, oh yeah, I was in that show. And I said, are you going to have more episodes? Cause it was like, I think [00:09:00] Vikings maybe had concluded its run. And, and maybe Sons of Anarchy was still going. I can't remember the exact sequence, but he goes.

No, I think we're, we're about done. We're about done. I'm like, oh, okay. And then I looked him up later. I'm like, who is this guy? I talked to the, I was talking about the wrong show with the wrong guy. Yeah. That's my worst nightmare is just like saying something awkward and then never forgetting it. Like just always, that's like always this, this cringy moment.

I'm reliving in my head. So self self preservation move for me to not talk to celebrities. Um, Okay, so anyways, uh, so you've got a pretty, um, illustrious, uh, career in, in higher education and, and, uh, speaking roles, keynote speaker, all this kind of stuff. So give us a little bit of rundown of your background, which has kind of led you to, um, having this sort of platform, uh, around the skills based economy topic and, and things like that.

Yeah, well, you know, it's like a lot of people. I never [00:10:00] set out to work in higher ed. It kind of was by accident. Uh, you know, I have my bachelor's degree is in public relations and communications. I'm minored in marketing. Uh, you know, and you could take that into anything. You could parlay that kind of education into a lot of different things.

And I Ended up working, as you said, at the University of Illinois at Chicago in marketing specifically. And I was doing marketing within student affairs, which it was an interesting gig because my job was to get students to do things like attend events, participate in programs. Um, and then I kept doing that.

And eventually someone said, where'd you go to graduate school? And I said to them, I didn't go to graduate school. I just have my bachelors. I'm good to go, right? I was a kid from a small, small rural area in Iowa. For me, that bachelor's degree was everything and ended up going to graduate school out at the illustrious, as you say, Oregon State University.

And it was a wonderful experience. I was working in enrollment management, financial aid registrars. Really got to sort of see the full picture of what it takes to both recruit and [00:11:00] enroll and retain students. I was also an academic advisor for a time and and then I started as well. I was writing and getting invitations to speak at certain events because I was talking about technology and digital engagement.

Uh, and then I eventually parlayed that into a few vice president roles at ed tech companies. I'm with a ed tech company right now called Territorium. And it's really kind of the best of both worlds for me because I get to talk about, you know, higher education and the value of higher ed. But in the context of the skills based economy, which you mentioned, which is, you know, most people go to college to better their chances for career success for their chances for employability, maybe a greater salary.

And and so. What, what are institutions doing when they're recruiting students? What's the story they're telling, uh, students around? What's the value of that degree? Not just from the on campus or even the off campus for those online, uh, learners. What's that experience like that's going to [00:12:00] connect you to employers down the road?

How are you verifying skills based on all the learning that occurs in the classroom? And so you've got everybody from the registrars who handle the transcript saying we need something better than, than the sort of ABCDF language that we've had in the past. It doesn't show, for instance, what John and Eric know or with the skills that they developed in, in, in college, but those are.

And so that's where we started getting into new record system, new technologies, things that take badges, which are basically saying. You're verified skills on certain things. That's why they call it a micro credential saying, you know, about certain things, stacking them all together and saying, Hey, at the end of the day in John's digital wallet or Eric's digital wallet, now they can directly showcase the value of higher education to employers based on all those validated skills.

And it's a much deeper, richer connection rather than just saying, you're going to have a great experience in the [00:13:00] dorms, or we've got a winning football team. Because at the end of the day, people are getting into five, six figure debt for their higher education experience. If they're doing that traditional route for the degree, for the diploma, what do they get, what do they got to show for it?

And it can't just be career services coming to students at the end of their experience. It's got to be weaved throughout so that what students learn in the classroom, what they learn outside of the classroom. All connects back to the reason that students go to college, which is to better their chances for employability.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the debt is. is pretty, uh, pretty insane, and I, I'd imagine, I think, you know, this, this whole idea of skills based, um, learning applies both to people coming out of high school and also to adult students, but I would, I would say, like, you know, probably especially adult students are, are, adult learners are, are, are probably more acutely aware of it, because I think, um, a lot of, a lot of, um, Uh, a lot [00:14:00] of, you know, people come, well it's quote unquote traditional students coming out of high school.

A lot of them are probably on this trajectory just naturally. They're just kind of flowing down this river. They've always been told they were going to go to college. And, and so, and so they go and they might not realize until they get out into the real world that this college experience was or wasn't helpful.

Um, but I think, but definitely like As you're in an adult and you're spending your own money. Yeah. No, it's, well, it's different. You know, in America, there are, it's, it's, it's 39 and probably quickly approaching 40 million, uh, people in the U S with some college, but no degree. And so that's people who have some credentials, some bits and pieces of a transcript, but no diploma and probably a lot of debt.

And so they need a way to be able to translate what's on that diploma, what's on that transcript, excuse me, not the diploma, the transcript, because the transcript, honestly, it's, it's outdated. It's outmoded. It's like a resume, right? A resume. [00:15:00] It only has on it what you say you can do rather than what others have actually verified what you can do and what you've learned.

And so for those adult learners, they're looking to upskill, they're looking to Add on and stack credentials. Maybe they're going back to college to sort of fill in the blanks and get more experiences, more learning. And so that's where things like a comprehensive learner record, which is sort of the next iteration of the transcript.

That's where these digital wallets, which are basically, you know, all that collection of learning that you've got in your life, John, that is housed in that one repository that is yours to take with you, regardless of which institution you're at. You know, let's say you're a graduating senior in high school.

You've got one already. You go to a university. You've got it there as well. Then you go on to the workforce. You're looking to upskill and it follows you throughout your entire life journey. And that's really a big piece to this because at the end of the day. We all learn new skills. We actually add on kind of new experiences.

We, we continue to grow as [00:16:00] individuals. And that's, that's kind of our career trajectory. And up until this point, it's been get your transcript from your institution. And then what? Right. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Um, so how, how did you, how did you arrive at like this passion for this topic? I mean, was there, was there something personal in you that frustrated you or that you noticed where you really kind of went down this rabbit hole?

Yeah, well, exactly. It is definitely a rabbit hole. You start talking about it, you start to find out who, who's in this space. And it is an interesting collection of characters and companies, right? Walmart, for example, they're all over this. I think they're one of the largest, if not the largest, employer in the U.

S. The U. S. Chamber of Commerce is talking about this. Um, there are... Lots of associations are talking about sort of the interoperability of it, which is basically saying these records need to be like Lego, where they can be plug and play into different systems, different institutions, different [00:17:00] companies, uh, so that no one kind of owns it.

Um, it's actually the learner or the worker who has quote unquote sovereignty over their records. And the way I got into it is one. For me, I appreciate any ed tech that adds value to learners in a real tangible way. Uh, it's not just something that institutions are buying, uh, that costs a lot of money and then they put it on a shelf and no one ever uses it.

You know, at the end of the day, this is all about benefiting both learners and institutions. You know, on the institution side, it's about translating the value that they bring to students in a skills based economy. And it's about adding extreme value for students so that they don't just get a transcript and then, boom, they're out there.

It's about... Directly connecting them, you know, as a bridge to employability to me, that's the best of both worlds because honestly, I went from a community college because I couldn't afford a four year, you know, college right away because I came from literally like the dirt roads of Iowa. So I went to community college, went to university, got my four year [00:18:00] degree, you know, I went to Oregon State University and, you know, that's, that's like the ag school right for Oregon because, you know, those are my roots.

That's where I come from. And so for me, it's about bringing back value, uh, to the people that honestly I've worked with my whole career. I've worked with students. I've worked with college administrators. Uh, that's the space that I, that I feel has the most power to change the world. In many ways, because that's where innovation is happening, that's where, you know, if you, if you look at the data around, uh, the impacts, the societal impacts of higher education, it's tremendous.

And so, to me, my, my, my grandfather, who never even graduated high school, he always said to me, which I thought was really ironic, because like I said, he didn't even get his diploma from high school. He said to me, stay in school as long as you can, because it's the best place to be. And I think that's what I've done.

Yeah, talk about the, the In your opinion, you know, because, um, we talked in our pre call about this, [00:19:00] um, Gallup poll and, you know, questioning the value of higher education, and that's a, that's a hot topic. Um, and, and, what, what's your take on the value of higher education and, and, like, the far reaching impacts of, of a college degree?

Like, what, like, is that something that you believe in? You just kind of believe in it, um, you know, maybe packaged a little differently, or? Exactly. I mean, higher education has always evolved and iterated over the years. It's not just kind of like a static thing. Um, you know, in terms of how things are put together, programs, degrees have changed, you know, the college degrees that were offered at Harvard.

Um, you know, they're not the same as they are institutions around the U. S. Uh, institutions are delivering all sorts of learning at scale at an online basis. And so I think that You know, at the end of the day, institutions, they have tremendous value to [00:20:00] individuals, to communities. It's just about, as you say, how they package it, how they construct it, how they put it together.

I think for the longest time, Higher Ed has shied away from saying, we are about helping students and people in our communities. You know, be more empowered when it comes to employability and career success. I think the career success angle has long been something that higher ed has shied away from. Uh, because, you know, for folks who are on sort of the academic side of things, for faculty, you know, it's, it's almost been labeled as a negative thing to talk about sort of the skills aspect.

But, you know, I was a PR major. I learned communication, critical thinking. Writing, uh, numeracy, I like all the skills that I gained, uh, in higher ed are tremendous to me as a worker, as someone who's had a career, as you say, spanning, you know, two decades now. Uh, and, and so I think that, you know, higher ed just needs to, one, acknowledge the reality [00:21:00] in which it exists now.

You've got an enrollment, uh, cliff that's looming and if, you know, if it's not already here, which is you've got shifting demographics of, of just who's available. Uh, for recruiting, uh, and recruitment for students, right? And so that's a big deal. You've got to say to students, Hey, We provide tremendous value that we think is, you know, in exchange for our tuition, uh, is going to propel you into the workforce because that's why you're taking this this on.

That's why you're taking this four or five year experience or even maybe if it's a micro credential or an online learning course or certificate as you know, especially with a lot of adult learners. Um, you know, I think they've got to be honest with the story because I think the if you go to some of the Um, the conferences, you know, around sort of like recruitment and admissions, um, that some of the technology has changed.

Some of the ways in which the messaging has been delivered, um, has changed a lot of AI advancements, for example, with [00:22:00] like CRMs, but what they're actually saying needs to change because it's not fair to students to say, we're going to saddle you with debt, but we're not going to prepare you for career success.

Exactly. Yeah, and I think, um, there's a lot of industries, and I, and just in my tunnel vision, being a creative, um, I see a lot of instances in creative industries where the value of a college education is dwindling. Um, you know, where, uh, for instance, in the... Video filmmaking context. There's a whole website that's very popular called no film school, um, dot com or something like that.

And it's, and it's all, they'll teach you lighting sound, like, you know, how to shoot an interview, how to, how to operate, you know, on a commercial set, all, all this stuff, um, that's supplementing the learning that you would get at film school and, and, um, And to, to now where it's kind of like, you want to be a filmmaker, you want to make.[00:23:00]

You know, videos for companies, whatever, uh, just go do that, you know, learn, you know, I never went to film school personally, um, you know, I studied as a, as a painter at, at art school and, and here I am making, um, you know, videos and commercials and things like that, all of which I just learned on the job.

You know, I just had, just trial by fire. I started as an editor at this production company and my, my boss, uh, said, here you go. Here's a project, uh, figure it out and I figured it out. And then I just kept figuring other stuff out. Um, you know, and it, and it kind of evolved into a career, uh, for me, but that's not, that's not, uh, yeah, I think, I think there's, um.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of instances where, uh, you know, definitely like a film degree is, is valuable in certain contexts, but there's a lot of instances where you don't necessarily, like you have to think about it in terms of return on investment. If I'm going to spend, you know, six figures [00:24:00] on a, on a degree, is it really going to help me get more, uh, employment opportunities, um, or is it just going to be something that I, Said that I was going to do so.

I did it, you know? Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, is it a, is it a box checking exercise or is there a inherent value in it? I think that, you know, one of the things too, is it's not a, uh, you know, sort of black and white or super polarized decision. You can say that, you know, there are organizations, for example, like opportunity at work and they have this initiative in this sort of, um, campaign around promoting people who they call stars.

Which is, it stands for skilled through alternative routes, right? It's like people who are routes. So it's like people who have, um, learned on the job, they become managers, they've, they've been leaders within those organizations. And yet in some cases, the barrier to promotion has been the four year degree.

Um, I think the challenge to this [00:25:00] conversation is. We're not saying from, you know, from Territorium, from my perspective, we're not saying that college degrees need to go away. No one is saying that. It's about just saying how things are packaged, how the value in that story is told. I think that that's a big part of it though, because when you start saying, well, people can go to, you know, learn how to make films without going to, you know, film school and the conversation stops.

Right. But at the same time, let's say. You go to film, you don't go to film school, you get to a certain level in your career and you decide, yeah, I'm gonna sign on for a couple of credentials here and there, like a micro credential, get some badges and then you have that on your on your, you know, your digital wallet.

You've got that in your comprehensive learner record. It's there with you as you go along. So I think it's it's a conversation around balance. Um, there are many organizations. American student assistance is one that's talking about, you know, career readiness for K 12. And one of the things they're working on is saying, you know, not everybody needs to go to college on [00:26:00] and everybody knows that, right?

Not everybody's going to go to college. That's going to be the reality for a lot of people. Uh, but it's about the combination because look at the states. There are quite a few states now and it's a very bipartisan issue that have dropped the four year degree requirement for a lot of state jobs. And of course, if you're a, if you're a state university at that level, you see the governor at your state saying we dropped the four year degree requirement for jobs.

That's it. You know, not easy to swallow. Right. It's kind of a bitter pill. And so I think that, you know, it's about how institutions take everything that they've got under the hood and package it to showcase to all those, some college no degree people, to all the stars that are out there, uh, maybe you don't need the four year degree.

But let's get you some micro credentials, stack them together, and create something new that will add value to your career without maybe some of the stuff that you don't need or don't want to take. Right. Is this happening anywhere, this, this digital wallet idea is, uh, it's the first time I'm hearing about this.

Um, is [00:27:00] this happening already in, in institutions or is this something that you feel like should be implemented? So, yeah, I mean, a huge plug for Territorium, of course, you know, our life journey app already has a digital wallet built into it. And so whenever you've got an institution that has micro credentials, uh, as one of my college colleagues called them the other day, all their stickers that they're giving out to students, but they got to have a place to put those stickers.

And so that's where they go. They go into the digital wallet. Cause one of the things that we're working on at Territorium is, okay, you've got your digital wallet, you've got all your micro credentials, all your other credentials, your verified skills, it's all in there. But then how do you connect that to employers?

And so, all these employers, a lot of them, they only go through certain companies for their jobs. So like, you know, there are certain companies, a handful of them, where if you go to apply, you're basically applying through these intermediaries that handle all the information for the application. And so what we're doing is saying we're going to connect those learners through those intermediaries straight [00:28:00] away so that the employers can get those folks and we call it best fit jobs, best fit jobs for the learner who's trying to connect with these employers and also employers are getting people with list of verified skills automatically.

So it's not just stated skills that they say they can do. It's what others have actually verified and validated. And. Yeah, it's really, it's cool technology. The other, the other little cool part of this though, when you've got your digital wallet is you can say, okay, John, you want to apply for a certain position, but based on your skills that you've already got in your wallet, you're only 60 percent of the way there.

If you want to be a good fit for this position. And we can tell you to get the other 40%. Here's Some micro credentials, some certificate programs of institutions to get you further across the line. Uh, and so We've got some interesting projects out there with Morgan State University, University of the District of Columbia, UDC.

Um, and we're doing stuff with this really cool organization called the Young People's Project, [00:29:00] YPP. Uh, and they work with kids, uh, who are studying, uh, math. Because it's, it's been shown that, especially with African American kids, a predictor of success is if they progress through algebra, uh, in terms of their career success.

And so YPP is all about sort of a train the trainer model where they've got these kids that are basically learning how to become tutors and they're uploading into their CLR, uh, verified skills, uh, that then they could take on to, you know, and it's another institution or what have you in terms of their digital wallet.

So it's some really interesting transformational stuff. And in many ways it feels like the resume and the transcript, you know, they're kind of like cave paintings, right? And we're bringing fire to the equation. Yeah, even, even just getting a transcript, I remember if in my college days, I'd have to like go to the, go back to my college and like talk to someone in person and like fill out a form and, and all this stuff.

So the idea of like your skills, um, your [00:30:00] verified skills being accessible, even, uh, I would think is, is important. Well, because you look at a resume, people used to say, like, I got, I have Microsoft Excel skills and then no one would actually question it. Right. Yeah. You know, everybody says that. Exactly. I got Microsoft Office.

Exactly. PowerPoint. I have all the Photoshop, you name it. And yet based on what? And I think, I think that that's really important because then if you're an employer, you say, well, actually these, this person doesn't know how to use this. Uh, and that's why verified skills in a skills based economy are extremely important.

For sure. I remember my, my, my stepbrother a long time ago. He was, he was, he interviewed for a job at, um, as like a valet, like a valet Parker, whatever. And he, they asked him, do you know how to drive a stick? And he's like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he like came, he went home and he had to like learn, he had already gotten the job.

He's like, all right, I gotta learn how to drive a stick now. Um, so it's just funny, it's just funny that you can, you can just pretty much say [00:31:00] whatever you want. Well, it's funny. My kids just came into the office, but, um, you know, so I used to do that when I, um, did a construction job over the summers. They were like, Hey, can you drive a stick?

And I went to my grandfather's house, the one who told me to stay in college. And, uh,

I like, you can, you can put a bolt on the door and whatever, anyway, um, so let me answer that question again, respond to your comment and we can, you know, put a, yeah, we can. Yeah. We're going to, we're going to edit this. So no worries. I've got kids too. And that, you know, hold on one second.

Ludicrous. Um, you know, it's, so it's, it's funny. I did the same thing, uh, over the summer when I had a construction job once they, I was like the only person who [00:32:00] applied, I was 18 and I was the only person who applied who didn't have a DUI. And so the first thing I said was, can you drive a stick similar to your friend?

And I said, Oh, of course, of course I can absolutely drive a stick. And so that weekend I went to my, my grandfather's house, uh, in, in, on the farm in rural Iowa. And I said, grandpa, I gotta learn how to drive a stick shift. They're going to have me driving like dump trucks and all these things. And, you know, he did his best and I, yeah, it was.

It was definitely comical, for sure. Yeah. Not, not so much of a necessary skill, um, these days. I learned how to drive a stick when I was like 13. My, um, my parents got an old, like, uh, VW Beetle. And, uh, it was stick shift. And, uh, stupidly, I don't know, my parents would just let me, like, my dad would, like, take me around the neighborhood and, like, let me drive this thing.

He's like, I'm like 12, 13 years old learning how to drive a stick, uh, and nobody was hurt. But, uh, but [00:33:00] the inside joke at Territorium is of course, then we would add that to your CLR. We'd add that to your comprehensive learner record. It's a verified skill. We'd have someone, you know, give you a badge, a little, a little VW beetle badge or something.

How is it verified? Like who's verifying these? Yeah. So typically, like for example, if you're getting it through a class, uh, so let's say you're in. Um, a journalism class and and they're kind of going through some different things on the, um, through the syllabus and the curriculum. And so it's sort of looking at the overall learning and outcomes that will be achieved and saying, okay, yeah, john, you have achieved the following, uh, in terms of.

Uh, I don't know, writing level one, um, critical thinking level one. And then you kind of start to stack that stuff up together. And so usually, uh, it's going to be on the academic or faculty side in terms of verification, or maybe it's an employer who has verified this, uh, or you've taken an assessment. Um, you know, the nice thing about this is there's a lot of assessments out there, you know, territorium, we offer a couple of different assessments are actually used by [00:34:00] institutions for accreditation purposes.

And so they'll, they'll have students take these assessments, uh, sometimes at their first year, kind of at orientation and sometimes at the end of their experience, kind of, you know, senior year graduating to sort of see where students are at as a baseline and at the beginning. And then at the end they can see, okay, this is where they're at now at graduation.

And they'll send that on to accrediting agencies to sort of showcase that the actual learning gain that's happened. But that's, that's a big part of it too, though, in terms of, you know, if there can't be a person to verify it. At least the assessments can verify it. And of course, with our assessments, you can get badges, which is great, too, because honestly, you look at these institutional websites around some of these tests, and it's like they're begging students to take these assessments for the institutional accreditation side or for maybe like programmatic improvement at the institutional level.

And if you're, you know, 20 years old, What's going to get you to take a test? You know, it's not exactly an easy ask. And so if you say to a student, Hey, we're going to give [00:35:00] you this badge, which showcases your extreme critical thinking abilities. That's an actual win because then you could share that with a potential employer down the road.

For sure. I think that's that's really interesting. That's because there's a lot of things that I've learned along the way that are probably very transferable that that I might I might not even Think to put on my resume. Or something like that, like critical thinking skills. You know, but that's probably very important to an, to an employer, uh, to, so to have this kind of this curated list of like, these are, these are employable skills, um, that you've been learning is cool.

How, how, so how should that, um, you know, going, going shifting gears to like the messaging side of things, speaking to higher ed marketers here that are wondering, how do we, how do we, um, roll this, uh, how, how do we think about our messaging and storytelling in terms of, uh, these thoughts, like what, What do you see in general that, that colleges [00:36:00] are getting wrong?

What do you see that they're getting right in their messaging? Talk about that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's obviously that's tricky. You never want to, you know, ping someone cause they're getting something quote wrong. Um, but I, I think that what they haven't been doing, right. I think it's always about maybe that is sort of like adding on to what they have been doing, but saying.

You're going to have a quality experience. We're going to, you know, support you throughout your entire experience. But how is it connected to employability? I think that's a big piece, right? Here's a degree, here's a program. How does it connect to what employers are looking for? Uh, because I think that's a big, big part of it.

And I think that, you know, I saw an article the other day that was around, you know, tuition discounting, you know. The sticker price for institutions is not usually what students are paying. But if you've got declining enrollment numbers, You need more people to pay a higher price, and if you're asking people to pay a higher price, there's got to be a transactional exchange that says you paid a little bit more, but by golly, we got you a really good [00:37:00] job at the end of it based on all the skills that you acquired inside the classroom and outside the classroom, right?

Because there's tons of amazing experiences outside the classroom that are part of that collegiate experience. Yeah, I think that there's probably just a stigma about tuitions just rising arbitrarily, you know, I, um, you know, and, and just, but the need to connect that to like, if I'm paying more, what, what more am I getting?

Well, like, look at liberal arts, look at liberal arts schools, right? Liberal arts schools provide an amazing education, an amazing experience. But they're always getting dinged in the media because they're not, connected to sort of like hard skills or, uh, you know, engineering or business or, but liberal arts schools teach students all kinds of amazing things.

But again, it's about how those students take those amazing things out to the world and say, look at all these amazing things that I can do. And a transcript ABCDF. Right. [00:38:00] But if you say you took, you took the following courses, but within that degree, within that sociology degree, within that philosophy degree, you know, anthropology, uh, English, you have skills that are transferable, marketable, and that make you extremely employable.

And these are, and those are things too that. You know, cause in this age of like, I can learn anything, almost anything I want on YouTube. Uh, you know, my, my dad is, my dad does not know how to fix a darn thing in his life. Uh, he's always so impressed when I'm like, Replacing the dishwasher, the, the, or the garbage disposal.

He's like, it's like you're a wizard. It's like you're a wizard. Yeah. He's like, how did you learn how to change your oil? And I'm like, it's just YouTube. You know, like you can learn anything, uh, almost anything nowadays. Obviously, you're not gonna become like a master electrician, you know, on YouTube. But, but I think this idea of like, there's just very [00:39:00] hard skills that you can learn.

And I think there's Probably, there's probably some career paths that you could just, like I was saying earlier, you, you probably could just learn the skills necessary for the job, at least to kind of get started and then learn the rest on the job, like just by learning online. And so there's probably some level of competition now where higher ed might be taking a hit because there's so much free.

Learning all these content creators want to educate everybody and provide value and in doing so They're sort of putting Colleges, you know out of a out of their place in in educating the world But I think that's such a key point that you made that there's so many other Um, soft skills, leadership, um, all that kind of stuff that, um, if, if you were to package that and say like, this is a definable verified skill that I learned in college, that's not something you're necessarily going to learn on YouTube when someone's just teaching you how [00:40:00] to do X, Y, and Z or, yeah, well, and it's verified, it's, you know, the verification of it all, you know, that does matter.

I think as employers are trying to suss out sort of. You know, are these people actually qualified for for roles? I mean, employers are getting thousands of applicants for jobs now trying to figure out who is actually legit and has the goods. Um, it's it's been a challenge. And so this helps eliminate that challenge by connecting them with best fit candidates.

I think that, you know, institutions, they've got to change the story. I think you, you know, you're talking about the competitive nature of people saying maybe I don't need to go to college. I remember, you know, gosh. 15 years ago, uh, there was this guy who was putting this book, this book about how he didn't go to college.

And of course, his parents had gone to college and a lot of people around him had gone to college. And so there's, there's always that little element, right? Like the people saying, don't go to college are usually connected directly to colleges in some way, which is why I, you know, I'm a huge proponent, uh, of the higher education experience.

I think it's, uh, one of the [00:41:00] best things people can do, but I think with institutions, you know, for example. You know, they're trying anything right now. They're trying to recruit from other states saying, Hey, we'll give these kids from other, uh, other states, um, the same cost, uh, even though it's out of state, you know, because out of state tuition used to be a big revenue driver, but now they're saying, Hey, come across the border.

We'll, you know, you have the same program, et cetera, similar, uh, for the same cost. Um, and they're even doing things like direct admissions, right? There's basically sending people letters saying you're, you're admitted to the institution. But what they found is that, uh, even though they sent a bunch of letters to people, they didn't enroll.

At a higher rate. And so like there's a lot of these experimentations around sort of, you know, let's use AI for our communication. Let's use more SMS messaging to keep kids from maybe not, um, going somewhere else during the summer because they changed their mind and I say kids, and that's unfair because you got a wide spectrum of ages here, but, but at the end of the day, it's, it's not the technology, it's the [00:42:00] message that shows.

The value, and you can't show the value unless you have solutions in place that could connect students and learners directly to employers in the workforce. That bridge, that bridge is extremely important right now, because at the end of the day, if you don't have that bridge, you're just saying the same thing everybody else is saying, which is a beautiful, you know, brick filled campus with, you know, a bookstore with hoodies and we're charging XYZ for the experience.

And good luck when you graduate and that no longer cuts it. Yeah, the experience is important. And I think, but I think it's, um, and I'm, I'm just speaking out of assumptions here. That, you know, me as a college student, I've talked about this before on the podcast, but me as a, as a college student, belonging was a big seller for, um, you know, for where, for, I went to, where I went to college, that, that experience of like, now I'm independent, I'm no longer living with my [00:43:00] parents, where do I want to do that at?

Who do I want to do that with? Who do I want to learn from? What do I want my college years to be like? Um, that, that, that experience was really important, but if I were to go back to school now, it's really, I'm, I would be really focused on that return on investment. That's not something that I was ever thinking about when I was 18 years old.

Um, it's not something you, when I went through art school, I thought I was gonna be like a gallery artist. It was just kind of like, whatever, something's going to happen on the other side of undergrad. Uh, and my life, you know, I took a completely different turn, but I was never, I didn't go into college as an 18 year old thinking this is exactly what I want to do.

Um, and so what school is going to give me the biggest return on investment? I don't think a lot of college students even know what they want to do. Um, and what is the return they want on that investment? Yeah, I mean, with that, you know, if you're 18. You're not [00:44:00] thinking about your career necessarily. Um, when you set foot on a campus.

And I think that in some ways, though, the, you know, the pandemic, it reoriented things for sure, because, you know, students were coming to campus in certain places. And so what does college even look like in that lens? And I think that's where, you know, I think colleges really took a, uh, a step back and they kind of looked at, you know, the overall picture of what it is that they're providing.

Um, Because there is that sense of belonging, there is a sense of community, sense of engagement. How do you do that in an online space? It takes work, it takes real intentionality. And I think it also takes super intentionality to connect learners to the sense of employability at the end of it. Um, you can't just like hope that they show up to your office or hope that they show up to a program, hope that they show up to learn more about it.

I think institutions, part of the story has to be. We're guiding you through this. I mean, I was an academic advisor. A big part of my job, even though I wasn't located directly within the career services department [00:45:00] was career advisement. I was working with students around, okay, look, here's what the Bureau of labor statistics says around this particular career and like the outcomes you might look at it based on your degree.

And, and, and students were always wanting to talk about that because that's. What matters? Yeah. Granted, some of them were juniors or seniors. It took them a while maybe to get to that conversation, but the conversation should definitely be happening sooner because you don't want them. You don't want them to be surprised.

You don't want anybody to wait till the last minute. Yeah, I think the schools that there's a school here locally in Michigan that does a good job of this where a big part of their core messaging is helping you find your vocation. Um, and, and so they're, they're really, they're really addressing that, uh, the, cause they have a very big undergraduate presence.

So they're really, they're really addressing that, that sort of pain point of like a lot of students coming in to college, not knowing. What their value in the world is and what to do with their life and the skills that they, they have at the moment or the skills that they want to acquire. Um, [00:46:00] and so just messaging and storytelling around the, the institutional experience, helping you find that direction in life and how that's, that's a part of the core experience from day one.

Um, which I think, which I think is, is important, you know, for, um, it's a different way of thinking about connecting the, the college experience to. Employment, you know, down the road. It's a little more like, um, step before that. We're going to help you. We're going to help you figure out what, what you're good at.

Uh, so then, you know, you can kind of learn those skills to then get, then get employed. Uh, which is people change their mind like three times, four times, people change their majors so many different times as they're kind of exploring, uh, things. I think that. You know, I took a whole bunch of science classes, took anatomy and physiology, um, I signed up for chemistry and I never actually finished it.

Uh, but I had all these things I was taking. So I thought, okay, I want to be a physical therapy, uh, major, [00:47:00] right? Like pre, pre PT and started taking all the science classes, learned a lot of stuff, changed my mind, went into PR and marketing. Yeah. And, and so for a lot of people, they might take all those science classes like I did change the mind and drop out.

And then what, you know, and I think then we have to figure out what is, what did they get out of that experience that they had thus far? Um, because I think, I think honestly there's a responsibility out there. You know, the, the, the, the student loan debt number is just, it's astronomical. And I think that, you know, it's a, it.

It is a very dark cloud on higher education that we've let things get to that point. And I think that the story has to be, we are emerging from this because we're trying to make, you know, people's lives better, people's careers better, and our communities better. And that, that to me, I know it says three points and super simple, but I would be hammering that message home day in and day out.

Yeah. And I, and I also think too, just like the, [00:48:00] the idea of, um, recruiting from an employability or a, you know, world impact perspective versus what's on that transcripts, you know, I think about my, uh, uh, my wife's, uh, journey to becoming a, she's a trauma therapist, um, super good at it. She's one of the very few, Truly trauma focused therapists here in Southeast Michigan.

Um, and, um, she, she. She didn't do great in undergrad. Like she, she kind of bounced around. She was going to be an, uh, occupational therapist. She wasn't, she, she wasn't doing well in the biology classes and, and things like that, and eventually, um, it's funny. We were, when we were dating, we were watching an episode of teen mom when that show, when that show came out.

Um, and it, and one of the subjects on that show was going to an adoptions, uh, uh, pregnancy center, which was like. In our area and our friend, uh, mutual friend works [00:49:00] there and she's like, Oh yeah, we're, we're hiring actually, if you want to, you know, apply. So my wife became an adoptions worker, basically, basically by chance from watching teen mom.

And that was her, that is the definition of serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, um, uh, it's so many things stemmed from that, but like she, when we decided to move across the state to go to Western Michigan University, um, she didn't get in at first. And it's so funny thinking back now, I mean, she's so brilliant.

at this like just so it's so intuitively like discerning and can just like see right into somebody's soul and just give them right the the exact thing that they need to hear uh in that moment that's going to help them heal um but it's funny to think like based on her based on her gpa and how she kind of bounced around in undergrad a little bit she didn't get in she had like she had to then like contact this person that she met at a conference and like really like You [00:50:00] know, really try to anyway, he ended up this, this, this, uh, trauma influencer here in Michigan ended up helping her over that hump.

And now it's just like, she's amazing, you know, but it's, but it really sounds like she had to work for it. You know, when you have to, when you have to work for something like that, it means even more, you know, it's even more special and it sounds like she had to really work to overcome, you know, quite a few sort of like system based challenges.

That didn't necessarily showcase, you know, what she could do or what she could be. And, and, you know, it's awesome that she got there. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's great. It's great. I mean, it's, it's, it kind of makes you think like, you know, what, what should that process look like even in the admittance phase in the admissions phase of like, what is the potential of this student to really be successful in the workforce, in the workforce?

Um, how, how do we see their skills beyond just whatever they're. GPA was in high school. If you look at my GPA in high school, it's terrible [00:51:00] because I didn't care. I was in a punk band. I was going to be, I was going to be the next blink 182. You know, I was all of that. Like everything that goes along with that, that was your GPA.

1. 82. Yeah, the band was going to make it, you know, all, all of this stuff. And, uh, you know, I, I ended up stumbling into a successful career, but if you just looked at my GPA, uh, coming out of, High school. If I, if I didn't know how to paint some pictures, no chance of getting in, you know, I ended up going to art school, but it certainly was not because on paper I was, uh, extremely, um, you know, it, it, uh, admissible, whatever recruitable.

Yeah, exactly. I think, I think honestly, that's why, you know, there are so many people who are part of that, you know, the stars that I referenced earlier, um, who are super skilled, extremely skilled. You know, tons of great experience, and yet they don't have a piece of paper, you know, and I think that's why I think that's why, honestly, a lot of the states have said, You know what?[00:52:00]

We're gonna empower those folks, and they don't necessarily have to have a college degree to continue to advance in their career at the same time. Loads of other people are still going to go to college. Loads of other people are still going to enroll. Um, it's about balance at the end. At the end of the day, the main story for higher education is, you know, what I've mentioned earlier, but sort of the overarching theme to this thing is about balance, right?

It's, it's college is great for some folks. Maybe it's not the choice for other people, and that's okay, too, because success comes through all sorts of different doorways. Yeah, absolutely. So let's, uh, put, put a bow on it for us. Maybe what are some practical, uh, takeaways that, um, that we can boil all this stuff down to for, uh, higher ed marketers that are listening to this, that, that wanna um, go, I dunno, implement something.

Yeah, exactly. Just, you know, on a whim, on a, on a Friday night when they want to implement some EdTech platform. Yeah. , I think at, at, you know, at, at the end of the day, You know, it requires a deep conversation with senior [00:53:00] leadership at the institutional level to say. We can't continue to operate on a business as usual, uh, path because we've got to literally offer career pathways to our students, even though we offer tremendous degrees, because the reality is higher education doesn't exist in a bubble.

It exists in the real world. There's just one in the same. And I think that the message, the key message that higher ed has to continue to hopefully absorb and listen to is that The nudge towards saying we're providing our students with an amazing education, amazing experience, but we're also measuring and verifying those skills they're receiving and earning and learning and capturing, that is just part of it as well.

Because then it's an easy lift to connect them directly to employers. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, awesome. Well, this has been a really great conversation. I appreciate you coming on. Where can, um, where can people connect with you at? Where can people connect with, uh, Territorium at? Yep, just, uh, [00:54:00] ezterritorium. com.

Uh, and my email is just eric at territorium. com. That's E R I C at territorium. com. Awesome. Well, Eric, man, thanks so much for being here. This was a great conversation. I appreciate it. Thanks so much, John. All right, we'll end the, we'll end the recording there. Um, cool. That was great. We went in all kinds of directions.

That was awesome. That's what I like to do. Just meander. There are some podcasts that are like 20 minutes long that are just very, very like on script. I liked it though, because it had good flow. It had sort of a natural conversational flow rather than six questions you have to answer, even if they don't connect or sound good together.

Yeah, I like, those are the podcasts that I like to, that where it's like, I'm just going to sink into something for an hour and, uh, it doesn't have to be, it's not like I'm skimming a blog post where I'm like, I want to get, hurry up and give me like the five points that I need. It's kind of like, if I'm going to sink into something, I like to hear some stories.

I like [00:55:00] to laugh a little bit. I like to get to know the hosts, get to know the guests a little on a personal level. So, yeah, that was fun. Thanks for, thanks for this opportunity. I mean, I, uh, well, I guess thanks chat GPT. Yeah, absolutely. Um, cool. Well, this will come out. I think this is coming out next week.

Um, So I've shuffled the order around a little bit. Um, so I think we've actually kind of bumped you up a little bit in the queue. Um, so that'll come out next week. Uh, I'll send you an email with, uh, some detail there. I have a, like an offer that I offer all of my guests for 50 Amazon gift card. If you leave a review, post the episode on LinkedIn.

And then if you have like a website or blog that you can post like a backlink to, um, you know, to the episode that Yeah, we're releasing, we're launching a new website, uh, hopefully next Tuesday. And so, you know, obviously it's kind of a blog and, you know, you don't need to give me a 50 gift card or anything like that.

I will be putting it out there [00:56:00] anyway, um, on social. LinkedIn, you know, we put stuff, Twitter is just a different animal now. I just find that the actual, like, organic reach of Twitter is minimal. Unless you're saying something that wouldn't be affiliated with the company anyway. Um, yeah, but yeah, so LinkedIn has been fantastic for us as that B2B vehicle.

And I think that. You know, the higher rate marketers that I'm connected to, you know, they're going to, they're going to either love what I had to say or throw rocks at me, which is exactly what you want on the podcast. Absolutely. Um, cool. Yeah. Well, those three things we'd love for you to participate in those, uh, you know, take or leave the 50 Amazon gift card, but is that in euros?

In euros? Uh, yeah. I mean, do they even have Amazon there? Of course, of course we got, we love Amazon. Amazon. Actually, it's funny. Amazon. You know, I've had different flavors of Amazon because I've lived in the us I've lived in the UK and I've lived in the Netherlands. And you know, in the US you can order some things and it's like there the same day and definitely the next day, like that's almost like baseline.

Yeah. [00:57:00] The UK it was always two days, you know, that was kinda like the, the quickest Never, you know, as quick Yeah. The, the Netherlands, it's slower. It's uh, three, four days or longer. And they have another website actually that everyone here uses. . Um, so Amazon doesn't have sort of the, the monopoly Yeah. On things.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I know there's like, certain countries don't have Amazon, they have Alibaba or mm-hmm. , you know, something like that. But, uh, well, and that's like, you know, you could get like crazy random things, you know? Yeah. At like, I need a thousand of this, uh, from some factory and they're gonna make it for you.

Yeah. I, um, yeah, I mean, for me it's like, can I translate it? 'cause I, my Dutch is terrible. Yeah. That's, um, yeah, it's an interesting thing for sure having to translate everything, but I think that, um, yeah, my biggest worry is can I fit it in my cargo bike? You know? Are you a big biker? We don't have a car.

Um, we, we just have, we just have e [00:58:00] bikes. And so, um, if the one we have that I, that really is the one I ride most of the time, taking the kids to school, going to the grocery store, what have you is called an urban arrow. And it has a big black box in the front, uh, that, uh, it's just two wheels, big wheel in the back, a small wheel in the front.

Um, but it's got, it goes top speed. I think it's like 26 miles per hour. And, um, it can go faster if you're going downhill, it can go faster. Uh, because with the kids, me and the bike, and if we got stuff on it, it can weigh like weighs like 400 pounds. How do you take the kids on there? So like a sidecar, it's got a big basket in the front.

If you, yeah, if you Google urban arrow, it's got, the basket is made from, um, like helmet material, like the same foam as a, as a helmet. Okay. And then it's got like a metal frame around the front and you strap them in. It's got a seat, like a bench seat. And I see it here. Yeah. And uh, it's awesome. Like you can, that's cool.

You can fly. I mean. It takes a little getting used to because it's heavy. Um, that's like seven grand. [00:59:00] Oh, it's not cheap. It's our car basically. Yeah. Well, yeah. For, you know, if you're replacing a car, we are at, I think we've put something like 4, 000 miles on it. Wow. Since March of 2022. This is cool. I've never seen one of these in the, I mean, allegedly they're there, but it's not in numbers like here.

When I make the run to school, I will pass by loads of people with them. Yeah. Yeah. You could not, this would not fly in Detroit, but, um, I wish it would. I, no, not in, not in, uh, in a motor city. Yeah. I love, I love biking and I just wish we had a more bikeable, uh, city here, but I mean, this country we, we explore, I mean, we are, we load the kids up in the bike.

And we just go and we ride all day and the, the, the bikes, they have, um, settings on them. Like turbo is basically if you want the maximum assistance, the fastest it can go, but it goes for a shorter duration. You [01:00:00] put it on like eco mode and you can just go like all day for hours. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

Super fun. Good deal. Um, all right, well, I'll, uh, I'll reach out when this thing launches, uh, probably next Wednesday and then, uh, we'll, we'll go from there. But yeah, man, thanks for being on. Thanks so much John, this was super fun. Yep, alright, talk soon. See ya. Bye bye.