Higher Ed Storytelling University

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:26:06
John Azoni
Okay. My guest today is Joe Marshall. Joe is the founder of All Things Words, a specialist copy and content strategy for higher education clients. She spent more than two decades working with universities and schools to banish the blah and create better copy and content. Joe and her team have particular expertise in helping universities find their voice, shape their messaging, and tell more compelling stories that resonate with higher as diverse audiences.

00:00:27:02 - 00:01:00:20
John Azoni
They work with education clients in the UK, Europe and here in the States, including UCL, the University of Loughborough and the Anglo American University in Prague, and the program platform Coursera. So today we're talking about university program pages for our for our listeners in the UK, I think they call them course pages in the States, we call them program pages, We'll use them interchangeably to mean the same thing and would be a landing page on your college or university's website that houses information about a specific program or course or degree.

00:01:01:18 - 00:01:15:17
John Azoni
So we're talking about, you know, how do you optimize those pages so that they're really serving the goals of your institution and making it easy for prospective students to get the info they need? At the moment, they need it in a language that will speak to them. So, Joe, thank you for being here.

00:01:16:22 - 00:01:18:21
Jo Marshall
Thank you so much. Really happy to be with you.

00:01:20:01 - 00:01:24:23
John Azoni
So what's it like being from the UK?

00:01:26:07 - 00:01:35:13
Jo Marshall
Well, I mean, I'm pretty biased. I you know, I love it here. I've always lived here. Yeah, it's a pretty cool place. The UK. Yeah. Have you ever been?

00:01:36:07 - 00:01:44:10
John Azoni
I have not. My daughter is. She's almost nine. She's in. She's really loves trying to talk with a British accent.

00:01:44:10 - 00:01:46:21
John Azoni
Accent lately. Oh, yeah. So it's very.

00:01:47:05 - 00:01:47:16
John Azoni
It's pretty.

00:01:47:16 - 00:01:49:10
John Azoni
Entertaining. Yeah.

00:01:49:10 - 00:02:08:07
Jo Marshall
We do the same in our house with American, especially when we find words that are like, you know, completely different pronunciation. We had it recently, actually. My son, he's seven and is really well was really into dinosaurs. He's just great out with them. But how you guys we say diplodocus how do you say.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:08:20
John Azoni
Yes.

00:02:09:13 - 00:02:10:05
John Azoni
I've never heard.

00:02:10:10 - 00:02:17:02
Jo Marshall
Of a dinosaur. Diplodocus apparently say an American diplodocus. Yeah. We were like, they were like.

00:02:17:04 - 00:02:19:17
John Azoni
What are you even is that.

00:02:20:06 - 00:02:35:02
John Azoni
It's like when people I had a professor in college that for me it was like an advertising class. And he would call it an advertisement and it was like, I don't know, is that, that how you guys say it in the UK?

00:02:35:18 - 00:02:40:14
Jo Marshall
Yeah. Advert adverts. And what is advertisement with you guys.

00:02:40:14 - 00:02:41:16
John Azoni
Yeah. Advertisement.

00:02:41:16 - 00:02:43:15
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:43:15 - 00:02:45:02
Jo Marshall
The little, the little quirks.

00:02:45:17 - 00:03:07:08
John Azoni
Yeah, I did. I was in art school. I did a semester in Southern and South of France or whatever, then did like a little independent studio program. And I lived with the host family and like the daughter of the family would always try to say cheese and they don't they she couldn't do the double E sound. So beach chairs.

00:03:07:15 - 00:03:19:13
John Azoni
And I was like, Honey, not just say cheese, just say it like, yes, it's just so funny. Like what people are grow up on a certain dialect, like their, you know, motor function.

00:03:19:13 - 00:03:20:01
John Azoni
Slightly.

00:03:20:06 - 00:03:21:21
John Azoni
Solidifies in a certain way.

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:23:00
John Azoni
Yeah.

00:03:23:00 - 00:03:27:18
Jo Marshall
The sa the sound is like almost impossible to make isn't it. And if you don't have that anyway language.

00:03:28:07 - 00:03:35:20
John Azoni
Yeah. Okay. So we'll, we'll start off a little icebreaker here. What's something that people would be surprised to know about you.

00:03:37:03 - 00:03:53:09
Jo Marshall
Okay, so I have sung on stage with David Jones from the Monkees, from the Sixties band, The Monkees. Yeah. And it was like, yeah, it was like for emotional. My parents were there.

00:03:54:17 - 00:03:58:13
John Azoni
You were like, at a concert. And he brought you up on stage or.

00:03:59:08 - 00:04:25:00
Jo Marshall
Well, it wasn't the height of his career. It was in the eighties, and it was a pantomime, like a theater production of Puss in Boots, and he was like the funny character. He invited people up on stage to sing. And my mum, I asked my mum about this the other day when I so I might mention it to you, and she said that I really like eagerly put up my hand to go up on stage like no fear, and went up.

00:04:25:00 - 00:04:32:10
Jo Marshall
There were six of us and we sang, Oh, MacDonald had a farm. It's an F. You have that song? The same song? Yeah. And, um, and I was the pig.

00:04:33:02 - 00:04:35:01
John Azoni
So.

00:04:35:01 - 00:04:50:22
Jo Marshall
And I just remember he gave me a signed picture and a pack and, like, a box of sweets, a box of chocolate, and. But it was, you know, a big moment. I was eight and he was famous even though he was like 20 years probably after his, like the height of his fame.

00:04:51:21 - 00:05:06:04
John Azoni
Wow. That's a really cool story I used to watch with my sister. The Monkees had a TV show. Yeah, when we were little, and I can't even remember what it was about, but I just remember the theme song was the Hey, Hey, We're the Monkees.

00:05:06:15 - 00:05:08:07
John Azoni
Yeah, I remember that too.

00:05:08:07 - 00:05:24:00
Jo Marshall
And he was like, the funny one, wasn't he? The David Jones? He was like the funny character. And so I think, yeah, it was a big thing, especially for eight year old me. I was like, Wow, I've got this signed picture. I sang with him. It didn't matter to me that it was, Oh, my daughter. We had a farm.

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:51:13
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was in high school, I was in like a punk band and would, like, just, just just shred my guitar in my room all the time and, like, to these songs like Blink one, 82 and stuff like that. And I would, I would envision myself being called up on stage to like some like I do concert and like, like the guitar player had gotten sick or something like that.

00:05:51:13 - 00:06:03:06
John Azoni
And the only person that could fill in was me. And, you know, that was the that was like the scene that would play out in my in my room when I was 14. So you're just living the dream?

00:06:04:00 - 00:06:07:19
John Azoni
I was living the dream, Yeah.

00:06:07:19 - 00:06:18:06
John Azoni
Okay. So I want to start with your background a little bit. So how did you get into, you know, an expertise in copywriting?

00:06:18:06 - 00:06:39:04
Jo Marshall
Yeah. So it's interesting actually to reflect on because it wasn't a planned career path at all. I talk to a lot of students now, you know, in my work with the universities and a lot of people seem to have that career path like meticulously planned out. So they have like a lot of idea of where they want to go and how they want to get there.

00:06:39:13 - 00:06:58:07
Jo Marshall
I stumbled into copywriting. I kind of fell into it. I, I studied French at uni because my dad, my dad advised me to choose a subject that I liked and I liked French. So I studied French, got out of uni and that was almost the first time I saw what am I actually going to do with my degree?

00:06:58:13 - 00:07:16:20
Jo Marshall
Like, I don't think I'd actually thought, I don't know, you know, what job am I going to do? And I ended up doing an awful kind of sales job for a phone company selling like telesales, you know, on the phones. And I hated it. And it was a real motivation to, you know, go out and get a proper job.

00:07:16:20 - 00:07:41:17
Jo Marshall
And I this is like not pre-internet, but it was kind of we weren't using the Internet in any way like we are now. So I went to the local university careers office. I found this big directory and I literally wrote down they had a directory of like who would take a graduate trainee, all these local businesses. And I wrote down all the names of the businesses for anyone that would take like an arts graduate or humanities graduate.

00:07:43:04 - 00:08:01:12
Jo Marshall
And then I remember sitting in my dump like hallway of my shared house. So I was sharing with friends and I just found them all. I was just like, I was quite determined. I think I was just like I found like 20 companies and about the 20 of company happened to be a copywriting company and I had the same spiel.

00:08:01:12 - 00:08:17:03
Jo Marshall
I was like, you know, I'm just phoning to see if you might be interested in taking on a graduate trainee. And they happened to say yes. They were like, Well, we are actually. And I was they were like, Come in and have a chat with us. And then I was like, Oh, I better look at what copywriting is.

00:08:17:15 - 00:08:30:03
Jo Marshall
And I didn't actually know. So I then looked up and went for the interview and that's where it all started. But that was and that was 24 years ago. But it all started from this like just a chance phone call.

00:08:30:03 - 00:08:38:00
John Azoni
Really interesting. That's, that's, that's I mean, that's people say they stumbled into a job that's really stumbling into.

00:08:40:03 - 00:08:55:17
Jo Marshall
Exactly I if I can I kind of feel like I fell into it and then I realized that I quite liked it, that I was, you know, developed my skills and I turned out I was like, pretty good. And then I just stuck at it. Since then, obviously, lots of twists and turns and things have happened along the way, but that's where it all began.

00:08:56:15 - 00:09:07:12
John Azoni
Very cool. So tell us, tell me a little bit more about your work with institutions that we mentioned in your intro. So, you know, UCL, University of Loughborough, Loughborough, as.

00:09:08:07 - 00:09:08:21
John Azoni
Said.

00:09:08:21 - 00:09:09:17
Jo Marshall
Your compensation.

00:09:09:17 - 00:09:10:22
John Azoni
There. Oh.

00:09:11:10 - 00:09:38:17
Jo Marshall
It's a hard one. I yes. And now I run a little copy agency called All Things Words, and we work solely now with universities in the last couple of years gone all in on working with universities. I've worked on and off with colleges and schools and universities for over 20 years. But yeah, we now solely focus on that and we do all kinds of copywriting and content writing.

00:09:39:00 - 00:10:02:02
Jo Marshall
But I guess the main I mean, sort of to step back, the main problem that we help universities solve is, you know, they're not communicating well enough in some way or they are. And so the communication that they're putting out, or maybe they're not even doing a particular type of communication, they're not getting the results that they could be from from that communication or that type of communication.

00:10:02:02 - 00:10:36:09
Jo Marshall
So a lot of what that actually boils down to now is stories we write a lot of stories about university research, about student success, alumni stories, industry partnerships, all kinds of stories that universities might want to tell to connect people in more interesting ways to the brilliant things that are going on in their institutions. And yeah, those two names you mentioned, I mean, UCL, they're like, obviously there are massive university here.

00:10:36:14 - 00:11:02:07
Jo Marshall
They're like in the top ten, I think in lots of the rankings. And so it's been great to get involved with that and we started working with them in 2021. It's they made a pandemic and the first project we did with them was actually a little bit different. You know, you think of universities as doing teaching and research, but they also have a third strand, a lot of them, which is the innovation and enterprise side of things.

00:11:03:03 - 00:11:25:03
Jo Marshall
So we worked with we were asked to come in and help UCL tell better stories, tell better stories about this amazing innovation and enterprise work that they're doing. So that's all about taking research out into industry. You know, how do you translate the stuff that's happening in universities don't want to be ivory towers, you know, how are you making it real?

00:11:25:03 - 00:11:48:03
Jo Marshall
How are you using it to solve problems? How are you working with organizations to collaborate? How are your students maybe setting up their own businesses off the back of stuff that they're learning on your programs? So it's really, really interesting stuff. But when they came to us, their massive UCL, I don't know how many people like in terms of students, but like, you know, they're very, very big.

00:11:48:09 - 00:12:16:05
Jo Marshall
And the faculty, some of their faculties are almost each faculty is almost the size of its a school and so they had all these stories, but they were really not consistent, they weren't being consistently told. So we went and did this really interesting project where we helped all the faculty is create create a bank of stories around different, you know, partnerships or entrepreneurship or different different types of innovation story.

00:12:16:14 - 00:12:39:14
Jo Marshall
And then we went out and found those stories, obviously, with the help of our marketing contacts, and we interviewed the academics. So that was a really great way into UCL. We started working with them and since then that has snowballed into lots of work with other teams. Our name has been passed around. It's that kind of lovely thing that can happen with a big organization.

00:12:39:20 - 00:12:43:00
Jo Marshall
You know, if you get known then it can lead to other things.

00:12:43:17 - 00:12:46:11
John Azoni
Yeah. UCL Is that in the UK?

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:15:18
Jo Marshall
Yes. So that's University College London. So I should be using acronyms. I would tell of using acronyms. Oh yeah. It's University College, London. They are based in London and they are. Yeah, they're one of the big they're one of the big universities, one of the kind of really well known renowned ones here. And they're doing a lot of really groundbreaking research as well, you know, like developing the new cancer treatments for example, that are that are really around.

00:13:15:18 - 00:13:44:11
Jo Marshall
It's like harnessing the immune system to tackle cancer or big stuff to do with climate change, to deal with tackling inequality. They're really doing some very exciting work. So like for me personally as a copywriter, to be working on that stuff is like it's very it's a privilege and it's really exciting to help communicate stuff which is really important and is actually changing, you know, has the potential to change things and make things better.

00:13:45:11 - 00:14:09:07
John Azoni
I love that. And I'm a huge advocate, especially lately as I've been seeing more and more videos coming out of universities that have strong research focuses is just that is so interesting to me. I mean, just like watching a story about some groundbreaking research that's happening. And I saw a video from University of Chicago here in the States.

00:14:10:00 - 00:14:36:15
John Azoni
I did a video on like sleep study research that that they did. And then one story, one story that always sticks with me every day. I think about it for this reason, and I can't remember the school it was, but they tested what happens when you flush the toilet with the seat open and like, how many germs, like micro germs fly into the air?

00:14:37:11 - 00:14:37:20
John Azoni
Wow.

00:14:38:10 - 00:14:51:13
John Azoni
And so they're basically like they put like a they put like a chemical in the water and then like a glow like like a black light or something. And it was disgusting how much it was like a like a like a fountain of.

00:14:52:10 - 00:14:53:02
John Azoni
Oh, yeah.

00:14:53:08 - 00:15:01:09
John Azoni
Just toilet particles. And so now I cover my toothbrush. I have a little toothbrush cover that. So I think about this.

00:15:01:09 - 00:15:02:10
John Azoni
I'm going to do that now.

00:15:02:10 - 00:15:03:20
Jo Marshall
I'm going to cover my toothbrush.

00:15:04:01 - 00:15:32:17
John Azoni
Yeah, I think about that all the time. But I mean, that's groundbreaking. You know, college research right there, That's that's really what we get our money where we get our money's worth. Wow. But yeah, I find that so interesting. And I and I think that there there's there's so much power in, like, I just. I just feel like that's that's what would convince me to go to a school is like a school that's like doing something cool out in the world like that.

00:15:32:17 - 00:15:34:08
John Azoni
That would be a huge motivator for me.

00:15:34:23 - 00:15:53:21
Jo Marshall
Yeah, exactly. And the fact that you actually are going to be able to I mean, they can say they can working with a university like this, a school like that, is they can actually say, you know, we are leading the way in this stuff and you could be part of it. Like you could come and like work with us, especially if you're doing a master's program.

00:15:54:04 - 00:16:10:13
Jo Marshall
You know, you can come and like be part of this new research. And how exciting is that to feel that you actually might be able to in some way kind of influence something like that at that level, even when you're going to, you know, you're just studying at that bachelor's or master's level?

00:16:11:05 - 00:16:30:01
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. So I talk a lot about telling better stories. You know, we talk about that a lot on this podcast and everyone and I didn't I didn't put this in my questions list. So, you know, you don't have you don't have a good answer for it. Don't worry about it. This is a this is a bonus question.

00:16:30:18 - 00:16:44:12
John Azoni
Okay. But when you say tell better stories, what does that what does that mean for you? Like, what are structures that you're putting into place when you start working with a school that that elevates their storytelling?

00:16:44:12 - 00:17:07:21
Jo Marshall
Yeah, I think storytelling is like such. I know everyone kind of bangs on about it these days and you see paste on it all the time on LinkedIn. But I think there's something really powerful about telling good stories. You know, as humans, we're kind of hardwired to like story and to find meaning in story and to see ourselves reflected in stories.

00:17:07:21 - 00:17:47:06
Jo Marshall
So I think for universities or schools, you know, trying to reach potential students, telling stories where people can actually see them like a person that's like them or potentially, you know, a bit like them doing amazing things that can be really inspiring. So those kind of stories, I think, you know, are really worth doing. But I think in terms of telling better stories, one of the things we like that innovation and enterprise project, for example, that we I mentioned for UCL, you know, we a lot of the stories already existed, but they just weren't being very well told.

00:17:47:22 - 00:18:15:01
Jo Marshall
So the, the actual project was really interesting, but the way it was being told or the partnership or whatever it was like for various reasons, either because it was written in academic language to academic language, to boring language, or that it wasn't focused on the reader, it wasn't sort of thinking, who is this actually aimed at? So it was, you know, it's kind of simple communication techniques, I guess.

00:18:15:01 - 00:18:36:22
Jo Marshall
But if you don't know them, then they aren't simple, right? So just really focusing on the reader. So in that case, it's like if we're talking to if we want to get more partnerships going with the university, if we want to get more people from industry interested, we need to be talking about it from the from their perspective on what the benefits are of working with you from their perspective.

00:18:37:08 - 00:18:39:16
Jo Marshall
So those were the kind of things we did.

00:18:41:02 - 00:19:16:14
John Azoni
Yeah, Yeah, that's interesting. I think that we, we often like when we write stories or create content for our for our own organizations. But I think I think we often write it with our peers in mind rather than our audience in mind. Like what will my peers in academia think? Think of the way that this is written or the words that I'm using in one hurdle that I have gotten over in my career is the pejorative use of the word videographer.

00:19:17:01 - 00:19:50:03
John Azoni
So like very videographer amongst video people is is a negative connotation. That means like you go to some wedding with some big camera on your shoulder and you stick a microphone in people's faces and, you know, it's it's just very low quality kind of versus like filmmaking type of take up type of stuff. But like, you know, it was recently doing some research on like how do people actually use like what are people actually typing to Google when they when they want to hire a video person?

00:19:50:03 - 00:20:12:04
John Azoni
So I tested all of these keywords, video producer, filmmaker, blah, blah, blah. And overwhelmingly it was just videographer like, so, you know, And so it's sort of like you got to get over what other people, your peers with it because your peers aren't the ones that are, that are, you know, submitting the application.

00:20:12:04 - 00:20:29:23
Jo Marshall
Yeah. And I think that's so important. And actually in all types of communication they are linked in. It's important, you know, it's kind of trying to put aside like, who are you actually talking to, who you're trying to reach? You know, I think when I first got onto LinkedIn, I was thinking, oh, how is this going to sound to other copywriters?

00:20:29:23 - 00:20:47:12
Jo Marshall
But actually they're not the people that I'm necessarily going to be buying from me, right, wanting to work with me. And it's so and stuff that we think, you know, as people have been perhaps doing what we do a long time, we think it's kind of second nature. It might not be it's not going to be second nature to everybody.

00:20:48:09 - 00:21:12:17
Jo Marshall
So it's explaining things in a way that is understandable. So I think in academia there's an extra challenge is that there's a lot of experts in in universities and schools, you know, and they are used to talking in a very different way, like a very dry generally and complicated way. Like I look at journal articles and I'm like, wow.

00:21:12:21 - 00:21:16:02
Jo Marshall
Like, it literally makes your head hurt trying to understand what it's saying.

00:21:16:13 - 00:21:16:19
John Azoni
Yeah.

00:21:17:21 - 00:21:28:14
Jo Marshall
So it's a lot of what we do is Translation I've said this, I like, I've talked about this before, but it's like, yeah, we're translators, we're translating academic speak into normal language.

00:21:29:01 - 00:21:50:15
John Azoni
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that's it. So that's a good way to think about it. Okay. Shifting to our topic here, program pages, of course, pages. What should those pages do? What are the questions those pages should answer for a prospective student?

00:21:50:15 - 00:22:14:15
Jo Marshall
Yeah, I think really kind of top level, sort of the simplest way of thinking about it is that a program page needs to give a prospective student all the information that they need to make their decision about that program. And, you know, there's a lot, you know, been said about decision making and how like different things can feed into that.

00:22:14:21 - 00:22:42:13
Jo Marshall
So like the rational factors that people need to make the decision and the emotional and how you kind of weave that together. So I think that's what that's kind of a good way of thinking about it is like, how can we make sure we're giving a prospective student everything they need in terms of specific questions that I would sort of have in my mind from a student's perspective, because as a copywriter, it's my job to step into the reader's shoes, right?

00:22:42:13 - 00:23:04:03
Jo Marshall
So I'd be thinking, you know, is this a good and interesting thing to study? Is this a good place to study it? Those are the two main questions, like, should I study this and should I study this here? And this? Like really simplifying it down to those two things because a lot of program pages don't answer those two questions.

00:23:04:23 - 00:23:19:12
Jo Marshall
Interest like well and they overcomplicate it, you know. So it's really helpful, I think, to bring yourself back to the simplest questions that you need to answer, which is, yeah, should I study this and should I studied is here.

00:23:21:03 - 00:23:47:12
John Azoni
Should I study? This is a is an interesting one because I would I would think that that that it was like really just they already know that they're they want to study that And so it's like let me try to convince you to study it here. But that's really interesting that I now that you say that, I bet there are a lot of people who are just casually browsing different areas of study and, you know, thinking back to when I was in or going into college, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do.

00:23:47:12 - 00:23:55:20
John Azoni
So, you know, there is such an opportunity to to sell the actual field of study as well as doing it at your school.

00:23:56:14 - 00:24:15:17
Jo Marshall
Exactly. And I think it's worth remembering that people are going to be at this different place in their journey with this. So some people might be like, yes, I definitely want to study. I was looking at an example. We're going to come on see later, but about like a bachelor's at Bachelor of Psychology, because that is a subject that I wish that I had studied.

00:24:15:17 - 00:24:27:13
Jo Marshall
Like now that I have been a copywriter for 20 years. And I understand how important psychology is to being a good communicator, I wish that I'd done that, but I can't go back in time. I did like.

00:24:29:08 - 00:24:31:12
John Azoni
I Yeah.

00:24:31:12 - 00:24:49:12
Jo Marshall
I think you might. We might know that you want to study psychology. You know, that might be something that you've always wanted to study, or you're very clear on what it involves. But equally like having just a really clear description of what what it is like, what does that actually mean? What does that involve that might be needed as well?

00:24:49:12 - 00:24:51:09
Jo Marshall
People might be weighing up different subjects.

00:24:52:12 - 00:25:07:01
John Azoni
Yeah, Yeah. And like, maybe even like who are some of the heroes of, of psychology and what, what are some of the major advancements and thought that they brought into place that people might not even have realized came from a psychologist?

00:25:07:15 - 00:25:33:07
Jo Marshall
Yeah. Exactly like, yeah, what is psychology all about. What kind of things has it contributed. How how things move forward thanks to psychology, but going back to your question about what questions to answer, I mean, those are the two top level ones. But I think underneath that, if you think about the rational and the emotional side of things, I mean, from a rational perspective, you want to know things like, you know, what's in it for me?

00:25:33:13 - 00:25:56:16
Jo Marshall
What am I going to get on this program? What do I need to do next? So really kind of it's kind of it's a transactional page in a way. And. Well, it is. It's partly a transactional page. You want and you want to know this is a big time investment and a big money investment for people like, what am I going to actually be getting so very clear information on what I'm going to be getting?

00:25:56:16 - 00:26:16:08
Jo Marshall
And then the emotional side of things, I think people might be asking questions like, you know, am I going to belong here? How am I going to fit in here? What's your student experience like? You know, what's the support side of things? Like what kind of you know, it's also for some people, it's a really big thing to be They might be leaving home for the first time.

00:26:16:08 - 00:26:30:01
Jo Marshall
They might be going to a completely new city, a new place. So I think, yeah, it's really, really helpful to think about it with those questions in mind, because by doing that, then it forces you to be thinking about it from the readers perspective.

00:26:30:19 - 00:26:51:14
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. What are some areas? So like is thinking about the emotional and the and the and the logical and all those things? Yeah. What are some patterns that that you see a lot of schools engaging in that are ineffective. Like what? Where are areas where they waste words on things that are just distractions.

00:26:53:09 - 00:27:19:02
Jo Marshall
I think the yeah there are common sort of patterns and things that I see cropping up all the time on these pages of things that are not working as well as they could do. And I mean the first one is that there's too much, there's often too much navel gazing like I call it. You know, there's too much think talking about the university or the school and what we can do.

00:27:19:03 - 00:27:26:21
Jo Marshall
And we're really good at this. And we do this and we, we, we, we, we talk too much about them. So there's that. That goes on a lot.

00:27:27:03 - 00:27:28:16
John Azoni
Navel gazing. I've never heard.

00:27:28:16 - 00:27:33:00
Jo Marshall
Of navel gazing and looking inward and you need to be looking outward.

00:27:33:11 - 00:27:37:16
John Azoni
All right. I'm going to use that from now on.

00:27:37:16 - 00:27:38:13
John Azoni
You know, navel.

00:27:38:13 - 00:27:47:00
John Azoni
Gazing at the dinner table. I mean, you said I'm like, I must find some way to use that in my kids today.

00:27:47:15 - 00:27:52:02
John Azoni
I All right. Anyway, continue. Yeah.

00:27:52:09 - 00:28:12:15
Jo Marshall
The second thing is that your teeth are too generic. Often they're too general and generic and not tangible. And for me, that often feels like it's a bit like the language of the politician. You know, it's like when a politician speaks and you're like this party that's going, Just tell me what you mean.

00:28:13:03 - 00:28:15:19
John Azoni
Well, what are you actually selling? Right?

00:28:15:23 - 00:28:34:02
Jo Marshall
And I think I get that feeling a lot when I'm reading program pages. I'm like, But I don't actually understand what you mean. Like, they'll say something like, we, you know, you'll be learning how to solve current business issues or something like that. Something really vague, you know, like, Right, But what do you mean? Like what business issues.

00:28:34:06 - 00:28:53:01
Jo Marshall
That might be really interesting, actually. There might be some really interesting business issues that we could put in that to bring it to life, but we don't know what they are. So I have to then take that out when I talk to the academics. But so it's too generic. Then you've got also the too, too much academic language, which I've already mentioned.

00:28:53:14 - 00:29:14:08
Jo Marshall
Often they're left in the hands of the well. Sometimes they're left in the hands of the program, leads to write. And so it's not their fault. They're not but they're not communications experts. They are experts at teaching their subjects. And so they don't write in the language of the reader. And the result of all that, if you put all that together, is they're too boring.

00:29:14:13 - 00:29:34:11
Jo Marshall
They're too boring, they're not interesting enough. I'll just cut to the chase and they but they don't they're not doing justice to the program. So I speak to the academics. I do lots of interviews with academics and almost every call that I have, I come away really excited about the program. I'm like, Wow, I want to do that program.

00:29:34:11 - 00:29:50:01
Jo Marshall
I want to do that program like almost every week. I want to do a different program because of these. They sound brilliant. Yeah, but then you look at the program page and it's just not doing it, you know, it's, it's, it's yeah, it's not doing what it needs to do. And that's what we try and turn around for people.

00:29:51:11 - 00:30:18:14
John Azoni
Getting specific is one of the things that I think is so underutilized in storytelling, in copywriting, content creation, whatever, because you're right, like when people, organizations, leaders use these, these vague sort of platitudes, it just goes right over people's head. It doesn't do anything like solving business problems. Yeah, What does that mean? I mean, anything could be a business problem.

00:30:18:14 - 00:30:38:19
John Azoni
But if you were to say, like, um, you know, I don't know. Well, we'll teach you how to research to your target market and craft a message specifically for them. Now you've got me because I'm like, Oh, yeah, I'm bad at that. You know, like, I don't know where to start with market research. Well, I sent out a survey.

00:30:39:02 - 00:30:49:13
John Azoni
Do I go door to door interviewing people? Like, I want to know how to do market research. But if you had just said solving business problems, I don't know what that means. And I'm just kind of like, next, right?

00:30:50:13 - 00:31:12:07
Jo Marshall
Yeah, Yeah, totally. I think it's it's just worth thinking that good copy needs to paint a picture in people's minds. You want to paint a picture? You want people to be able to imagine and visualize what you're talking about. And the problem with generic language is it doesn't do that. It just kind of washes over you. Like, I don't actually understand what that means.

00:31:12:13 - 00:31:26:19
Jo Marshall
And so it doesn't resonate. But a specific detail. And there are lots of interesting details that you can pull out. That's a lot of what we do in program pages is adding in that. But that specific detail to make it more interesting.

00:31:27:10 - 00:31:49:17
John Azoni
And there's a lot of crossover between copywriting and storytelling too, because when I when I'm interviewing a student or alumni for a success story or something that's really on my mind, it's like I need to get this person to be specific because what they're naturally going to do is, is fly really high over their experience and just it was great.

00:31:50:17 - 00:32:13:01
John Azoni
Here's here's the professors I liked, here's the classes I liked. It was generally great. And now everything's great, you know, and, and, and that's and that's fine. Like, you need you need that, too. But it really I find like the emotion comes in in the specific. So like for me a question and I often ask is like tell me about like a specific moment.

00:32:13:01 - 00:32:37:06
John Azoni
That was a turning point for you in your in your academic experience, you know, and it kind of gets them to think like, yeah, was there a spot where I wasn't sure before? But then I kind of became confident or, you know, I was going this direction. Then I started pivoting to go in that direction because I think that that like pivot point is really interesting and that's such a good opportunity for specifics.

00:32:37:06 - 00:33:04:11
John Azoni
But if you if you just say like there are just there are platitudes that people just expect you to say, you know, like and so if you if you meet those expectations, you just blend in. You know, if you if you meet the expectations of small class sizes, great professors, blah, blah, blah, then you're just another drop of water under the bridge or, I don't know, some analogy like that know.

00:33:04:16 - 00:33:25:08
Jo Marshall
Absolutely. And that's a big that's a big challenge, isn't it. In in higher ed is that that that schools and universities can just blend into that this sea of sameness. And that's what we're trying to avoid. That's what we're trying to help them with, is is how do you find a way to be distinctive? How do you find a way to stick in people's minds?

00:33:25:14 - 00:33:49:01
Jo Marshall
And one of the ways that, as you say, is is to tell tell good, specific stories that are emotive. And I love that, though, that turning point. I've just scribbled that down. I'm going to add that to my questions, but I was just thinking about it's like moments of connection as well. How can you capture these moments, you know, of like I saw a university recently, remember which one?

00:33:49:01 - 00:34:17:01
Jo Marshall
Someone in the UK, but they were they got people to they'd recorded students talking about the professor that had had the most impact on them and they got them to tell a really specific story about what that, you know, that impact was. And then they showed that story to the professor and they got they've filmed the professor's reaction to it.

00:34:17:06 - 00:34:34:06
Jo Marshall
And then you've got these professors who are just like deeply moved by the impact that they'd had on their students. And it was such a brilliant thing because it was like a motive, It was specific, it was like human, and it just made me think, God, you, that's so much better than just saying, We've got a really great student experience.

00:34:34:06 - 00:34:42:11
Jo Marshall
So we, you know, we you will have a quality learning experience. So whatever you're showing me what it's like, it was really good.

00:34:42:11 - 00:35:07:21
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of my most impactful college, I feel like what I got most out of college was my experience with my professors and the relationships that I got from them. And I've told the story before. On the podcast, I had one professor in art school. Her name is Gilda, who just had a profound impact on me and just and my career, and she just supported me so much.

00:35:07:21 - 00:35:27:23
John Azoni
And there were so many times where I would just be I would just go sit in her office and just talk to her about something that was frustrating me, or ask her a question about how to price a painting or something like something like that. And I just have so many rich memories with with Gilda, You know, she passed away a number of years ago.

00:35:27:23 - 00:35:44:00
John Azoni
And but but that legacy, I think, for me, just those emotions that like when I think about my college experience, I think about Gilda and and you can't just you would not get that by just saying, you know, close student professor relationships, you know.

00:35:44:08 - 00:35:44:17
John Azoni
Yeah.

00:35:45:01 - 00:35:58:05
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what? So then what do you program pages need more of? I think we've maybe we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but if there's anything we haven't touched down.

00:35:58:19 - 00:35:59:11
John Azoni
Well, let's go.

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:29:16
Jo Marshall
Yeah, I think, yeah, we've talked about some of the, you know, emotion and creating connection and those kind of things. I mean clarity, That's obviously that is like the starting point for good copy, right? We need to before we think about doing anything else, it's got to be clear. So make that your starting point clarity, you know particularly thinking about students having to navigate lots of different schools and universities, like how can you make it easy for them to get the information they need?

00:36:29:16 - 00:36:58:20
Jo Marshall
And yeah, there are a couple of other things I thought of around this do more showing and less telling. Like I see a lot of schools and universities saying, again, this goes back to the talking about yourself thing as well, but it's like, you know, we're world leading, we're world leading in whatever it is in and, you know, particular type of cancer research, for example.

00:36:58:20 - 00:37:23:21
Jo Marshall
But you could show me that instead by inviting me to listen to a podcast with your ex, one of your professors talking about the latest developments in that field. So show me rather than tell me, I think it's so much more it's like allowing people to come to their own conclusion as well. You're not saying we're brilliant, you're allowing people to go, I'm going to discover that for myself.

00:37:23:21 - 00:38:07:05
Jo Marshall
Oh, you actually, you are brilliant because you're really interesting. This you're doing this really exciting stuff. So I think that I don't see universities doing that enough, showing showing people how good they are and also invite people in and see if you can like lift the lid a little bit and invite people in. So again, I don't see many program pages where you are giving where, where, but there's the chance to do like a taster session, like a try before you buy, even almost, you know, So it might be a free workshop, it could be like a low cost workshop, but you're asking people to invest a huge amount of money, so why not have

00:38:07:05 - 00:38:18:00
Jo Marshall
more of these kind of taster sort of sessions and and ways for people to try out what you what you're offering before they actually go into the full program?

00:38:19:02 - 00:38:54:06
John Azoni
Yeah, there's a school again I've for a listeners listening the podcast you've heard me talk about this one before it's just one of my favorite ones. But Hillsdale College is a is a is a faith based school here in Michigan, and they do these amazing free courses and they're like Masterclass level, like, you know, Masterclass trailers where it's like, you know, they these Hollywood directors that are teaching you things but super well films, high production value, really interesting kind of philosophical discussion about things in the Bible.

00:38:54:12 - 00:39:21:06
John Azoni
And the interesting thing was I started I started seeing a physical therapist just the other day, and as I was waiting in the waiting room, I hear one of the patients that's working with the physical therapists talking about Hillsdale and these free courses that they have, and he's just some random like, you know, older gentleman. And I'm like, Man, that's getting around, you know, that's like, I loved it.

00:39:21:06 - 00:39:26:20
John Azoni
I love I loved that I knew what he was talking about.

00:39:26:20 - 00:39:50:14
Jo Marshall
Yeah. No, it's an effective strategy, though, right? Because like, I guess you see it all the time on on LinkedIn, for example. People are people offer something for free or like a small ask before you go for the bigger ask. And I think that schools and education institutes could be doing more of that in the, you know, being a bit more savvy about that.

00:39:51:12 - 00:39:59:03
John Azoni
Yeah. Okay. So we're coming up against time here. So I want to I want to jump forward a little bit to talk about these couple of examples that you gave us.

00:39:59:16 - 00:40:00:03
Jo Marshall
Oh, yeah.

00:40:00:07 - 00:40:19:22
John Azoni
Okay. All right. So you sent me some some examples. One was from of Sydney, the other one was from University of Bath School of Management. So I want to talk about like walk us through like what's working about these. What, what Yeah. What's successful about these pages.

00:40:20:09 - 00:40:39:03
Jo Marshall
Yeah. So I picked a couple of examples. I mean the first thing I just wanted to say is there's lots of different ways to approach a program page. And you know, we don't want to encourage schools and universities to, you know, have the same kind of program page because then we fall into that sort of sameness thing again.

00:40:40:00 - 00:40:58:09
Jo Marshall
But I think it's really good to look at what other people are doing and like pick ideas that you like and, you know, model things and, you know, make it work for for your institution. So I'm always on the lookout for good examples. And I found yeah, there's a couple of what I thought what I think are good examples the University of Bath.

00:40:59:02 - 00:41:19:05
Jo Marshall
So that's just down the road from me. I'm in Bristol in the southwest of England and Bath is like about a 15 minute drive away. And yeah, the university we've worked with them actually, we didn't write this particular page, but I like their MBA page. They've got there, they've got various MBAs. This is the full time MBA page.

00:41:20:02 - 00:41:45:06
Jo Marshall
The first thing I like about it is the first screen immediately hits you with the key message for the program, like it's an MBA program. So it's going to be high profile. It's probably generating a lot of revenue for the for the institution. So they've invested in proper branding. It's got its key message, which is I'm just going to wait for it to come around again.

00:41:45:06 - 00:42:07:07
Jo Marshall
So it's a rolling ambition, changes everything and then a sublime, you know, give your career the boost it deserves with the boss MBA. So immediately you are hit kind of between the eyes with the key message, the proposition for this program. And then all you've got, apart from that on that first screen is the call to action, which is apply now.

00:42:08:06 - 00:42:38:01
Jo Marshall
And that is incredibly powerful compared to a lot of of other pages where you know that first that first page is like, you know, that is key, you know, a key a key space to be using. And so you need to be using it well. And so I really like that about how they started there. And then actually that's it's quite funny because just we were just talking about this try before you buy thing they've now underneath straight underneath that they've got you can register for a masterclass.

00:42:38:17 - 00:42:39:16
John Azoni
And Oh cool.

00:42:39:16 - 00:43:03:22
Jo Marshall
Yeah yeah. So they are using that idea that we just said you can register for an MBA masterclass and you know, test out what the MBA is all about before you go in and sign up or register your interest the rest of the page. I mean, it's really clean. It's very clean. So obviously copy and design need to work hand in hand, right?

00:43:03:22 - 00:43:31:00
Jo Marshall
So I really like the way that it just guides through. It's got a very short intro next where it explains the program's about we're talking a couple of paragraphs. So again, you you've got another little bit of information to add to add on, but you're not faced with too much information at that point. And then the rest of the page is, you know, it's divided up in lots of really nice sections.

00:43:31:00 - 00:43:39:23
Jo Marshall
It's got a fast facts section where you, you know, you've got key entry requirements and the fees and the course start date and things like that.

00:43:40:13 - 00:44:00:11
John Azoni
The family tax I think is really that's really is is great because it's I think we underestimate how much it's helpful just to have just give me a quick hit like high level stuff in a bullet point like when I ever see whenever I see like a bullet point list, I'm like my brain just breathed a sigh of relief, you know?

00:44:00:17 - 00:44:05:11
John Azoni
So I'm like, this is going to be structured in a way that's easy for me to grasp anyway. Yeah.

00:44:06:04 - 00:44:30:07
Jo Marshall
Exactly. And I think that's really important to remember, especially the way we read online. There's been a lot of research, hasn't there, around how people read. And we we don't read. It's not like we're reading a book. We are scanning for the key bits of information. So that you can do on the page to make it easy for people to take in information quickly without ever facing them.

00:44:30:07 - 00:44:55:21
Jo Marshall
And then we get into a video which you're going to like. There's a video next with a student, with a current student talking about the program. So, you know, that's obviously great because it's another layer of storytelling. And we're getting that social proof, the student talking about the course other than the university talking about the course. Right? Then we've got another key features and benefits section.

00:44:55:21 - 00:45:16:18
Jo Marshall
So again, it's like best specialist, you know, that really easy to absorb information with the key benefits and the whole page is broken up like that. So it's very, very easy to read and it just kind of guides you through. It takes you sort of on a journey. I don't know if you know, there's a copywriter that I that I really admire.

00:45:16:18 - 00:45:42:01
Jo Marshall
On to include Adicionar He's from Chicago and he talks about it. I was reading something recently about him talking about the slippery slide, the slippery slope of a slippery slide, and this idea that you want to like people to slide down your page, say, you know, and this page is a really great example of that you want to keep reading on because it's nothing's over facing.

00:45:42:07 - 00:46:02:18
Jo Marshall
They've used a mix of formats. They've got three videos on there. One is from a current, one's about an internship student, and then the last one is an alumni alumnus student talking about, you know, where the where the courses taken them, where the program has taken them in their career. So I think it's a really great example.

00:46:03:23 - 00:46:33:17
John Azoni
Absolutely. Yeah. I and I think I think it was you that I found that that that guy about the the slippery slope because I earmarked that to like I think it was maybe a podcast episode that he posted, but I was like, I need to learn more about that. Like really creating a rabbit hole for, for people to go down because once they're interested and you can just keep layering on more and more and more in bite size, little breadcrumbs, you know, it's not like hitting them over the head, trying to tell them everything in one single video.

00:46:35:01 - 00:46:39:11
John Azoni
You know, it's just but creating a whole journey for them to slide down.

00:46:40:11 - 00:46:57:08
Jo Marshall
Exactly. And just like not over facing people, like we can't take in too much information at once, you know, drip feeding a little bit and then a little bit more and then a little bit more. And if you want to go deeper, you can, you know, so this page, that's the landing page. But then they've got some pages.

00:46:57:18 - 00:47:18:15
Jo Marshall
So that's another, you know, good device to think about for these pages. You don't have to include it all on one page. You could have your main page and then with they've got a key features and benefits page they've got and they've got sections on funding and scholarships. How to apply the city of Bath. So it's almost like that.

00:47:18:16 - 00:47:23:01
Jo Marshall
I mean, that is one of their bigger programs, but it's like a mini website almost in itself.

00:47:23:14 - 00:47:27:09
John Azoni
Yeah. All right. So let's look at University of Sydney.

00:47:28:04 - 00:47:48:03
Jo Marshall
Okay. So I thought I'd go right to the other side of the world for the other one. And this is really different from the bath page, but what I really like about this one is and again, they do a really great job of that first screen they called above the fold. I don't know what the terminology is.

00:47:48:18 - 00:47:49:18
John Azoni
But yeah.

00:47:50:06 - 00:48:17:14
Jo Marshall
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that first screen, when you get to the page, all you've got underneath the title, this is the Bachelor of Psychology, you've got the ranking. So very simply it says third in Australia for psychology and then you've got a paragraph that describes why study psychology. So this is what I was explaining earlier that I think can be helpful.

00:48:17:19 - 00:48:38:16
Jo Marshall
And it says, you know, explore the science of human behavior in this course, your build, your specialization in psychology, help you understand mental processes and allow you to better understand how we think, act and feel. So it's like a really succinct description of what psychology is, which I thought, you know, I like that it's simple and it's clear.

00:48:39:03 - 00:49:04:16
Jo Marshall
And then they've got another section just underneath that. Who is it for? You know, this is ideal for the student who is considering a career in psychology industry, but also wants to keep their options open. So you immediately know that it's talking to you. If that is you, you know, it sort of allows you to self-select. And then again, they've got a video on that above the fold screen.

00:49:05:18 - 00:49:36:09
Jo Marshall
And at this time it's a brand video. So it's like a 32nd video, but really kind of quite a powerful video where they've got all the key benefits, the key facts about why study psychology at Sydney, which I really like, and this page is actually a lot shorter than the Bath one. Again, they've used they've got quite a prominent section on careers like where, where the program can take you, what kind of jobs you could go on to do.

00:49:36:09 - 00:49:58:16
Jo Marshall
You know, you could be a neuroscientist, you could be a psychologist all the different careers. Obviously, there are lots of benefits of studying at this level, but one of the main ones is working out what job you're going to do at the end of it. So I think sometimes this careers information can be hidden quite far down in a page and they've pulled it quite near the front.

00:49:58:18 - 00:50:12:14
Jo Marshall
It's quite near the top end and again they've used some pages. So the first page that you come to doesn't over face you, you know, it's just quite simple. And again, the design is just really simple and clean.

00:50:13:11 - 00:50:18:08
John Azoni
Yeah, very cool. Yeah, simple and clean is very effective.

00:50:19:02 - 00:50:43:00
Jo Marshall
Yeah. I think and I think there's thing about confused brains don't make decisions either. I mean, that's not the actual quote, but, you know, it's kind of people are potentially going to be over faced with so much information. So yeah if they can at this point in the decision making process, if schools can make it easy and kind of calm down the anxious mind, I think that that that can be really helpful, too.

00:50:43:18 - 00:50:50:22
John Azoni
I like about what's University of Sydney at the top. There's a Apply Now button and then right next to that there's a ask a question.

00:50:50:22 - 00:50:51:18
Jo Marshall
But yeah.

00:50:51:18 - 00:51:28:08
John Azoni
Yeah. Which, which I find as a consumer, if you can make it easy for me to ask a question about your product or solve a technical issue like a you know, if I've already bought it and I'm having an issue like having a, a chat bot or something on, on the, on the page are much more likely to, to not like bounce from, you know, from you because, because if I have to go through like a bunch of hoops to like what I hate is, is being you know is going to like the contact page and then they try to go get you to read all the forums and search all the previously asked questions

00:51:28:08 - 00:51:40:13
John Azoni
about Did that answer your question? And then, you know, Yeah. And then you have to like dig and dig and dig for like a contact button. It's like they really don't want you to call them contact us.

00:51:40:16 - 00:51:40:23
John Azoni
Yeah.

00:51:42:04 - 00:52:04:21
Jo Marshall
Yeah. And I just on that note, actually, I think another thing that can work really well on program pages is if you can have that direct, like talking to a student, you know, option like I know some I've been working with the university recently and you can have a chat with them this student ambassador and so you get to talk to a current student who's doing the course and I like I like that idea too.

00:52:04:21 - 00:52:19:23
Jo Marshall
It's that peer to peer, that peer to peer kind of support and maybe even like a community kind of if you could chat with people before you go, it might help with the idea. Might not seem so scary. Actually, the idea of going for sure.

00:52:19:23 - 00:52:20:15
John Azoni
Absolutely.

00:52:21:01 - 00:52:21:08
Jo Marshall
Yeah.

00:52:21:17 - 00:52:39:05
John Azoni
Well, cool. These are great. These are great examples. Thanks for pulling those up for us. Okay. All right. So. So yeah, this has been a great conversation. Where can people connect with you at if they want to work with you or follow you or anything like that?

00:52:40:04 - 00:52:58:13
Jo Marshall
Well, LinkedIn, LinkedIn is is kind of the only platform I'm on, really. But I love LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn quite a bit. So I love to connect to people on LinkedIn. And I mean, our website is all things words dot co.uk so you can find out more about us on that. But yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect.

00:52:59:06 - 00:53:36:17
John Azoni
Cool. I will give a personal review here for following Joe on on LinkedIn. I follow her. I very much enjoy it. I've I discovered Joe through Kyle Campbell who if you are on LinkedIn much at all, you will probably see him come into your feed if you're in there, if you're in the higher ed I like Kyle is I feel I know him already and the funny the funny thing is is like we we got on a virtual call a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and we were both surprised we hadn't actually met each other.

00:53:36:17 - 00:53:41:07
John Azoni
We were like realizing on the call we had never actually directly connected.

00:53:41:07 - 00:53:53:23
Jo Marshall
I mean, yeah, it's funny though, isn't it? Because you kind of feel like, you know, people from LinkedIn, which is I guess the power of good content as well, if you when you get on a call with someone you feel like you know them, then it shows that their content is working.

00:53:54:10 - 00:53:55:19
John Azoni
Yeah, for sure. For sure.

00:53:55:19 - 00:53:56:05
Jo Marshall
Yeah.

00:53:56:15 - 00:54:36:22
John Azoni
Well, yes. And so for people listening, hire a professional for your for your program pages because you know, having the the the program director or something like to write the copy is a good start but there is a design to moving people through to making a decision, moving people down that funnel. It's very important it's it's it is a skill that takes a very specific type of person that knows how, you know, kind of the brain works, how brains, you know, move through the page, skim through the page, what words they need to hear, where they need to hear them.

00:54:37:22 - 00:54:58:02
John Azoni
So, yeah, I'm a big advocate for working with professional copywriters like Joe, who will really give you a big return on investment. Just even just just picking different words, telling better stories and better page design is, is going to make a huge difference.

00:54:58:17 - 00:55:00:06
Jo Marshall
Yeah. Thanks, John. Yeah.

00:55:01:06 - 00:55:03:20
John Azoni
So, Joe, thank you so much for being here. It's great to chat with you.

00:55:04:12 - 00:55:06:20
Jo Marshall
Really great to chat with you. Thanks so much for having me on.