Higher Ed Storytelling University

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:24:13
John Azoni
My guest today is Jeremy Tears. Jeremy is the senior director of admissions services for Tudor Collegiate Strategies, as well as the host of the Mission Admissions Podcast. Over the past nine years, he's helped thousands of college and university admission and marketing professionals become better recruiters, communicators, writers and leaders through comprehensive of training workshops, yearlong training programs and one on one mentoring.

00:00:24:14 - 00:00:36:00
John Azoni
Jeremy is also the editor in chief of a well-known weekly college admissions and enrollment marketing email newsletter that has more than 3000 subscribers. So Jeremy, welcome to the show.

00:00:36:23 - 00:00:38:16
Jeremy Tiers
Appreciate the opportunity to be here with you, John.

00:00:39:10 - 00:00:58:20
John Azoni
Yeah. So today we are talking about a post that you did on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago. It was about some social media data that you guys had collected about which platform students, you know, go on when they want to learn more about different colleges they're considering. And then also some data about what they want to see on those platforms.

00:00:58:20 - 00:01:06:06
John Azoni
So we're going to get into that topic in a minute. But first, I want to start off with what's what's something that people would be surprised to know about you?

00:01:08:04 - 00:01:35:04
Jeremy Tiers
I would tell you probably a couple of things. Number one, for eight years, I was a college basketball coach on the men's side at three different colleges, two in Minnesota, one in the Indianapolis area, which is where I live now. And then for six years prior to that, I actually worked at multiple high schools as well, including two years as a college and career advisor where I did college planning for a school of about 800 students.

00:01:35:23 - 00:01:45:10
John Azoni
Oh, that's very cool. College basketball. We were just filming some college basketball the other night. It was a fun time. It was my first college basketball game. I had been to.

00:01:46:11 - 00:02:06:10
Jeremy Tiers
March Madness is without question in my mind, and it was the best sporting event of the year. Even for the non basketball fan. It's just, you know, a really cool environment. And if anybody's looking for a bucket list things at some point down the road, I highly advise them to try to get to a game at some point in March Madness somewhere.

00:02:06:10 - 00:02:06:18
Jeremy Tiers
So.

00:02:07:11 - 00:02:25:20
John Azoni
All right. We'll do that. Okay. So in your post, you mentioned you've been asking students for four plus years which platforms they go on to learn about colleges. So where's this where's this data coming from and where are you asking students, how are you asking them to just tell me about that?

00:02:26:19 - 00:03:00:16
Jeremy Tiers
So throughout the year, John, we do dozens of individual school surveys. Whenever we partner with a college or university on anything, whether it's staff training, communication work. And along with that, for a couple of years back to collegiate strategies, partnered with Niche. I'm sure you're familiar with them. And I have a good friend Will Patch is one of their senior leaders and so we did for a couple of years, both fall and spring surveys in collaboration together where tens of thousands of high school juniors and seniors were surveyed.

00:03:00:17 - 00:03:35:02
Jeremy Tiers
Now, the surveys we do internally, which are really the strategies that I referenced first, are done with incoming new first time college freshmen. And so we're really getting an understanding of both sides of the equation. Students who are just starting their search for college students are actually in the thick of it as a high school senior. And now that they've actually made a decision and they're either getting ready to start college because this survey can be done in, say, July or August or it could be done four months into their first year of school as a first year student, where it's still fresh enough in their mind.

00:03:35:14 - 00:04:03:02
Jeremy Tiers
And so when you combine all of that data and then I think initiatives, there's a really good job. They still do their own surveys as well throughout the year. They ultimately have found and we have found when you combine all of that data, that without question, Instagram is far and away where students, when they want to see and learn different things about different colleges they might be interested in, go first in terms of social platforms.

00:04:03:16 - 00:04:23:04
Jeremy Tiers
I would also tell you the surveys that we do for tutor collegiate strategies also give the option besides all of the platforms. And we don't just say pick one where you go the most. We will literally ask them, okay, which social media pages of different colleges and universities you were interested in or you're interested in? Did you check out?

00:04:23:09 - 00:04:43:23
Jeremy Tiers
And we're like, Check them all if you want. And it's all the usual suspects. But then the option on our survey was also I didn't look at any social media pages, and believe it or not, about 25% of students said, Yeah, I didn't. It doesn't mean they don't utilize social media, just means for college planning purposes. They didn't really utilize it to help them with their search.

00:04:44:10 - 00:05:15:19
John Azoni
Hmm. Interesting. Because I was I don't know, maybe it's a millennial thing. I would I would go on Reddit. That would be my that would be that's kind of where I go to get like the real scoop on something. And I find that you get a good variety of, like, personal experiences and stuff like that. So do you think that people are going on Instagram, for example, to get experiences from other students, or are they looking for the school's page and looking at what the school is saying about themselves?

00:05:16:22 - 00:05:36:04
Jeremy Tiers
So I think the answer is yes and yes. And back to your first point there, Reddit 100% is a place I think students go, but I would argue more. Go to Instagram and you can even look again at the recent data that I know Niched did a survey. I want to say it was November, December. So just a few months ago with current high school seniors.

00:05:36:04 - 00:05:55:22
Jeremy Tiers
And I know Reddit again, was definitely a place they weren't. But I believe I don't quote me that Instagram was at least a percentage point, if not more ahead of them and was still number one. I just think, John, they're on Instagram. It's one of the most utilized platforms for young people in the world, Right. Just from a usage standpoint, along with YouTube and TikTok and a few other things.

00:05:56:07 - 00:06:20:01
Jeremy Tiers
So I think it's number one, they're just on Instagram for fun anyways. And so they're like, Well, let me check out some of this college stuff because I enjoy the platform. Erm, it's a visual platform which again we know how visual this generation is. And so I think it's a combination of those things. I definitely think some use Reddit, but the lion's share according to every piece of data I have, says what I actually want to see things right.

00:06:20:01 - 00:06:32:10
Jeremy Tiers
Because you got to remember obviously on Reddit it's much more I'm looking and reading it things versus Instagram, YouTube, Tik Tok. I'm actually visually able to see images and or watch videos.

00:06:32:21 - 00:06:38:18
John Azoni
Right? So give us a lay of the land of Instagram was first. Where did these other ones fall?

00:06:40:05 - 00:07:01:00
Jeremy Tiers
When we do the surveys, just the Twitter collegiate strategy surveys. And so again, these are with students who have made their college decision that Instagram typically finishes, John, about 40 to 45% ahead of the next platform in terms of, hey, this is where I went far and away and we don't ask at what stage. So we don't ask, were you there as a junior?

00:07:01:01 - 00:07:22:17
Jeremy Tiers
Were you there as a senior after you picked your school? We're just like at any point in your college search, I would tell you it depends on the school. But typically YouTube and or Facebook finished second or third. Ticktock occasionally for a school creeps into one of those two spots, but typically it finishes fourth and then really there isn't much else down the list.

00:07:22:17 - 00:07:52:12
Jeremy Tiers
I mean, Twitter X, Reddit, Z is an amazing platform, but I think Xeni is used a little bit differently right, In terms of again, it's almost used more like, I would argue the modern day Reddit is because it's set up where it allows connections with other current students at the school, other students looking at the school. And so all of those platforms are definitely ones that students again utilize during their college search.

00:07:52:20 - 00:07:56:00
Jeremy Tiers
But Instagram far and away continues to be number one.

00:07:57:02 - 00:08:09:20
John Azoni
And are you asking a range of ages or are these people are these people coming out of high school or are they people going back to school to are mixed in there?

00:08:10:13 - 00:08:44:17
Jeremy Tiers
Sure. So all the data that I've been referencing so far would all be with traditional first time freshmen. So you're looking at high school students coming out of high school. Now internally, typically just strategies over the years has done different surveys with nontraditional students. So these could be transfer students, these could be graduate students. And ultimately, when we ask a similar question, I would tell you the number one answer is actually most of them don't look at any social media when it comes to helping them with their transfer search and or picking whatever MBA program or whatever it might be.

00:08:44:23 - 00:09:06:21
Jeremy Tiers
The number one source for them is typically either the school's website or it is typically conversations either with one or more people at that school and or conversations with friends, family members and coworkers. Those are there. We'll call it lead sources, if that makes sense. Way more than any social media is for most nontraditional students.

00:09:08:00 - 00:09:26:11
John Azoni
Interesting. I'm surprised that TikTok isn't higher. I think we all assume that people coming out of high school are like tik-tok obsessed. And I think maybe that's a misconception about, you know, Gen Z or or whatever is that, you know, they're only on TikTok and they're only doing dance videos and and things like that.

00:09:27:05 - 00:09:57:17
Jeremy Tiers
Well, and I would argue, like my go to all the time is Pew Research. I'm sure you're familiar with them, and they do a lot of just research on anything, let alone social media usage. And even if you look at their most recent data, which is only a few months old, it's saying that, you know, young people and they go all the way up to people in their sixties and seventies, but most young people, again, from a usage standpoint, YouTube and Instagram, right, continue to be along with Facebook and to an extent Tik Tok up there.

00:09:58:01 - 00:10:16:16
Jeremy Tiers
I also think, honestly, Instagram and meta because obviously matter runs, you know, Instagram. I think they've done a good job with reels and reels continue, I think to gain that much more traction. And you know, I know my daughter, who's 14 and a half, looks at reels, so and she's obviously not on Tik Tok, mainly because her parents have it.

00:10:16:16 - 00:10:43:10
Jeremy Tiers
Let her go on Tik tok. Yeah, it's good, but that's a good job decision for another another day. But so ultimately I don't think it's they're not on Tik tok I just don't think as many are on Tik Tok. And again, I think Facebook media is part of the reason why because of obviously the money and the investment they've made in that platform versus obviously a Tik tok, which I would argue is still in its infancy, if you want to think of it that way.

00:10:43:22 - 00:11:12:21
John Azoni
Yeah, I do like Instagram reels more than Tik Tok. I feel like the algorithm understands me more. I feel like Tik Tok is a little more makes more assumptions about what I want to see than than Instagram, which, you know, if if they show something sensational and I'm like, oh, what's what's going on there? And it's like very right wing or it's very left wing or it's something like that.

00:11:12:21 - 00:11:34:14
John Azoni
Then the next few days I'm getting like, if I just happened to watch the thing because it was like caught my attention, then they're like, Oh, he must be this or that, you know? And then they're showing me, you know, stuff. But Instagram, I feel like, kind of gives me consistently, like fun. I like to I like to get like the funny stuff, you know, from from Instagram and TikTok.

00:11:34:14 - 00:12:00:14
John Azoni
And I find that Instagram reels are easier to share than Tik Tok because my wife and I, you know, as as most marriages do have a running tally of reels going back and forth. But like Tik Tok, you have to text them. And that's just a little too I feel like that's just too invasive. Like because we're texting about other stuff, like, I like that, you know, and then, you know, the tiktoks just kind of get buried in there.

00:12:00:21 - 00:12:34:16
John Azoni
But when we're on Instagram, we're kind of like in the mode to consume content and will, well, we have this game. We'll play like five, 5 minutes. So a five minute timer. Whoever finds the funniest reel wins, wins nothing. Just bragging rights. But yeah, I mean, I just like the sharing the I think it's more I think reels has done a good has done a really good job of answering to Tik tok and and yet being a little more user friendly and the algorithm I like better.

00:12:35:18 - 00:12:50:11
Jeremy Tiers
Yeah I agree. And and you know, full disclosure, I use Instagram way more than I do Tik tok and, and I don't even have a TikTok account other than, you know, I have one. So I can actually log in and just look at content. Colleges are posting and and do whatever you want to think of as market research.

00:12:50:11 - 00:13:09:21
Jeremy Tiers
Right. But from an actual personal standpoint, I definitely use Instagram and I would just tell you to your point, Instagram with that algorithm change last fall has done a much better job, I think of saying we are going to prioritize relevant content based on, you know, again, what you're like in your search history, all those things. So.

00:13:10:03 - 00:13:30:23
John Azoni
Mm hmm. You mentioned to in this post of yours. And by the way, for people listening, well, I'll link to this post so you're not in the dark here, but basically we're just talking through the main, the main points. And but you mentioned, Jeremy, that 90% of your content should be from the current student point of view. And I think that's really important.

00:13:30:23 - 00:13:36:02
John Azoni
You could take that a couple of different ways. So I wanted to know, can you elaborate on like what you meant by that?

00:13:37:04 - 00:14:06:08
Jeremy Tiers
Sure. So in all of those same surveys that I referenced that we do at Tudor Collegiate Strategies, in addition to all of that quantitative data, John, we also, up until about a year and a half ago had a comment box and we're gaining qualitative data for about honestly, probably 7 to 8 years where literally we were asking students, okay, what do you think the admissions and marketing team at this university should show prospective students on social media?

00:14:06:08 - 00:14:32:12
Jeremy Tiers
Like what do they care about? What kind of the content do you think they would enjoy? And so when you look at all of the comments in those comment boxes, these surveys are all anonymous, by the way, over time, easily the number one thing they kept saying was just show current students doing what they do every day, show them eating, show them in their dorms, show them going off campus where the fun things they like to go, show all the different campus community activities they do.

00:14:33:07 - 00:14:58:17
Jeremy Tiers
And anything that shows me and helps me visualize what it would be like is something that is super important. And it it ties back into John to other data that we have as a company, which is, well, how do students how do most students make their college decision in 2024? And one of the top things almost every single time, in fact, for ten years that we've been asking is what we term the feel of campus.

00:14:58:17 - 00:15:17:01
Jeremy Tiers
We literally on, you know, surveys but feel and air quotes and it's just the feel of campus. Well, how do you explain to somebody what that means? Well, it's everything from again, if you visit campus, do people hold doors for each other? Do they smile and make eye contact? Right. Does campus feel too big? Does it feel too small?

00:15:17:09 - 00:15:37:12
Jeremy Tiers
Or if I'm watching videos, do I feel like I fit in with the community? Do I feel? And so I think all of that ties in. And so if you know, current students ultimately want to understand what it's like to be a student at that school, if they visit campus, great. They're going to get a sense of that.

00:15:37:19 - 00:16:06:09
Jeremy Tiers
But so many students can't for a whole host of reasons, Right. Visit campus. So how do you show them? And unfortunately, colleges have historically done a terrible job on social media because what you typically see is a lot of screenshots of event fliers. Yeah. And even now, I would argue, okay, you get a whole different sense of emotions and emotional engagement when you post just text versus a picture versus a video.

00:16:06:16 - 00:16:41:12
Jeremy Tiers
And unfortunately, if you looked at most college Instagram accounts, I would argue too many of them lean more towards pictures and words and text and not video heavy enough. And yet you and I both know also how much content is consumed. That is video based. So ultimately, I think it's it's all of those things combined. But at the end of the day, I would also argue if you do the current student lens correctly, I mean, that's influencer marketing and storytelling in 2024, right?

00:16:41:12 - 00:16:49:08
Jeremy Tiers
And it's those connections again and those feelings that ultimately then influence students to take next steps in this process.

00:16:50:02 - 00:17:13:13
John Azoni
Yeah. And I was I think this was I was a guest on the enroll if I podcast was Zach Bruce Cruz and we were talking about some ideas that would be great. One of the things that we we touched on was, you know what would it look like for a school to like to sponsor a YouTube channel or an Instagram account or whatever?

00:17:13:13 - 00:17:46:20
John Azoni
That was just one person's like stuff, you know, They're just like building a following of like, this is my life, you know? And I just think that that would be that would be kind of cool as a way to not only like, as a way to like, give people a very consistent, you know, kind of journey of of what it is, what it's like, you know, to be at that school and give someone a person to follow that is dedicated to creating that type of content because you're.

00:17:46:20 - 00:18:10:05
Jeremy Tiers
100% agree, by the way. And I would take it one step further, John, which is I've been saying for years, every college now needs to think of itself almost like they're a TV station, because if you think about the way young people consume content, well, nobody watches cable, right? Everybody goes to Netflix or they go to Instagram or they go to YouTube and this is where they watch, you know, quote unquote, what we think of as TV.

00:18:10:16 - 00:18:31:14
Jeremy Tiers
To your point, what if you literally and you're old enough like me to be able to remember the real world on MTV, but why could you not have some version of that where you literally are following students around now? They don't live in the same house or anything like that necessarily, but I've seen schools do this. That was a you know, this is probably been eight or nine years now.

00:18:31:19 - 00:18:55:02
Jeremy Tiers
But I was at Abilene Christian University in Texas a number of years ago, and literally, I believe this content still exists. So if you go to YouTube and you type in AC, you life on the Hill because their campus sits on a big hill, they actually had open auditions, had over 100 students come out to ultimately be part of what was almost going to be what you just described.

00:18:55:02 - 00:19:22:16
Jeremy Tiers
But for multiple students, not just one. And so they ultimately paid students and had them at the time because TikTok didn't exist, then write film and generate content, everything from man on the street to just one was a student athlete and it was following her, you know, from everything in practice to away games to, you know, another was doing all kinds of like fun facts about the school and run around campus, putting a mic in somebody's face and all this content.

00:19:22:17 - 00:19:47:09
Jeremy Tiers
So there they actually had a trailer at the start of the video where it looked very real world ish, and they were posting it on Twitter at the time and Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. And ultimately, unfortunately, I don't think it ever gained traction, according to what I heard, mainly because unfortunately there were just issues with people who spearheaded that, you know, moving on to different roles, leaving campus, going to different institutions.

00:19:47:09 - 00:20:05:10
Jeremy Tiers
And obviously it all fell flat. But but I've been saying for years, vlogging with a V is 100% the way to go. Because to your point, what if I could follow the journey of somebody even if it was only like once a month and I was able to see what's their journey like and you were able to actually have that person be authentic.

00:20:05:14 - 00:20:25:05
Jeremy Tiers
And it was clear that this wasn't just, you know, they're saying what the admissions staff or the marketing staff told them to say, and they were doing what students want, which is it's user generated content. The just again, help students go, well, I don't know what it's going to be like to be a college student or live far away from home or live with a roommate because I've never done all of those things before.

00:20:25:17 - 00:20:34:09
Jeremy Tiers
You can tell me as an admissions counselor I can read something and that's kind of helpful, but I'd much rather see it and hear it from the person living it currently.

00:20:35:02 - 00:20:58:09
John Azoni
Yeah, the reality show idea is such a good idea and I think, you know, you see that sort of sub cultures I guess of that playing out with like that show cheer I think it was on Netflix or something and yet I can't remember the schools. You have a couple of different schools that have like big cheer teams and then you're following these people through the lens of the cheer team.

00:20:58:09 - 00:21:21:08
John Azoni
But honestly, you kind of get attached to the school a little bit like, you know, you start to root for one school over the other and then there's this whole phenomenon of like, I don't know if it's still a popular thing, but the whole like rush talk hashtag of like mostly women, you know, wanting to get into sororities.

00:21:21:08 - 00:21:42:16
John Azoni
And so they're campaigning and they're doing these like, here's what I'm wearing today, Here's where you can get just like influencer stuff, but like building a whole personal brand around trying to get accepted into a sorority. And then they get like major brand deals and stuff after that. It's it's kind of crazy, but it just it just speaks to like how much people want to know.

00:21:42:22 - 00:22:13:21
John Azoni
They want to follow a person's journey. And I think that that's what and that's what marketing misses a lot. And that's why I say I talk a lot in this podcast about the difference between like Capital S storytelling and lowercase s storytelling, which is like Capital S being like an actual story, like an actual journey versus the other way that people tend to use the tend to use storytelling is just kind of like we're the marketing department, so we're storytellers.

00:22:13:21 - 00:22:37:15
John Azoni
Well, not necessarily, you know, you know, just just because you talk about your school doesn't necessarily mean that you're telling the story. You know, of the school. But but, but what people are wanting is the actual elements of storytelling, which is a person that is trying to achieve something or is on a journey, and you're following them on that journey.

00:22:38:17 - 00:23:03:16
John Azoni
So, yeah, I mean, I think it's I think it's I would love to see I would love to see some reality TV aspect come into higher ed because I have been a fan of reality TV since the first real world. I remember watching that like with my babysitter growing up, you know, and it was just it's something about it.

00:23:03:16 - 00:23:17:05
John Azoni
Like there's just there's just in any sort of reality TV show, it's something about getting attached to a bunch of strangers interacting with each other, fighting with each other, making up, you know, you know, just.

00:23:17:07 - 00:23:34:07
Jeremy Tiers
Well, it's human connection, right, John? I mean, that's how we all make decisions. I, I say this all the time. We all make decisions the same way as humans, whether it's you, me, our kids, or like our grandparents. It's all about how we feel. Do we feel connected? Do we feel like we can see ourselves doing that? Do we feel like we want that?

00:23:34:07 - 00:23:52:06
Jeremy Tiers
Do we feel scared about doing that? And I think to your point, I mean, I've asked over the years back to the idea of this concept of some type of reality TV show to be clear, I'm not telling any school. I give away all your passwords to students and let them know, don't ever do that. It's a terrible idea because all it takes is one one student to make a bad choice.

00:23:52:06 - 00:24:25:06
Jeremy Tiers
And you have a whole situation on your hands. But giving content right to then, for example, the enrollment, marketing or marketing team. And if that person or people understand, all right, we don't have to over post produce this, we don't have to like overthink this, right? We just have to chop it down into pieces that are ultimately going to be relatable for our audience is And then the other big thing to your point, which I think was a great point you made, colleges have done bits and pieces of this, John, in terms of showcasing their students through video, but I find they do a lot of one offs, right?

00:24:25:06 - 00:24:43:19
Jeremy Tiers
So it's like, here's John and he talks for a two minute video and you never hear from John again. Right. And here's Jeremy. And then here's here's the problem. John. Jeremy, Sally, whoever it is, aren't going to resonate the same way. But if John all of a sudden gets a massive like people commenting on it, then you got to give more, John, because people, to your point, want to follow John's journey.

00:24:43:19 - 00:24:49:23
Jeremy Tiers
And I find colleges missed that opportunity because it's all just like one off videos. If they do something like that.

00:24:50:14 - 00:25:14:15
John Azoni
I'm a huge proponent of not doing one off videos. And that's that's kind of the whole basis for unveiled. You know, our business is this subscription model at least, at least in consistency with telling stories, you know, that we don't get into like the sort of like follow their journey over the course of a year, although that's a great idea.

00:25:15:16 - 00:25:43:08
John Azoni
But but yeah, I think too many organizations approach video as as one offs. They go, okay, well we're going to do a story on this such and such person because they come from this program and we need a video for the program page and that's it. And that's the use of video. But there is there is really no building of of, you know, of a journey of people going through this process, multiple people or multiple videos from the same person and and stuff like that.

00:25:43:08 - 00:26:09:23
John Azoni
So I think you're you're definitely right on that. So let's see. Okay. My next you answered my next question, which was user generated content. So the type of content that the students are looking for on these platforms, because you gave a list here and I hopped on that, I jumped on the first one, which which fits my agenda current Student Day in the Life videos.

00:26:10:18 - 00:26:17:16
John Azoni
But let's just go down the list. So let's talk about day in the Life videos. Like what you kind of talked about that. But but just so the.

00:26:17:16 - 00:26:38:05
Jeremy Tiers
Bits and pieces of everything like John you're on social media enough like me to know just in doing research, like obviously there's this whole concept of how do I go viral, Right? And I don't have an answer for you. Right? It just it happens. But like, what do things in terms of videos that really get a lot of views and get a lot of engagement have in common?

00:26:38:17 - 00:26:58:00
Jeremy Tiers
It's it's a shaky camera like our iPhones have more than enough capability right. To be utilized for video right. So it's literally students filming on their iPhone them waking up showing what they eat for breakfast, meaning they don't always go, for example, to the dining hall. All right. Well, then, like what kind of things would they potentially eat in their dorm?

00:26:58:07 - 00:27:16:17
Jeremy Tiers
And is it in a common area or is it in their room? Right. And then what do they do after they go to class? And how long a walk is it to class? And what just literally showing any concept of from the moment when they wake up to the moment when they go to bed? Because again, you're filling in the blanks for prospective students.

00:27:16:17 - 00:27:33:17
Jeremy Tiers
So even if they visit a campus, usually haven't stayed for an entire day. And so they've been wondering in their brain, was it like this and do they do this and does this happen? And how does this work? And if you can show any aspect of all of those things, I would argue in a Day in a Life video.

00:27:33:17 - 00:27:37:10
Jeremy Tiers
But from the current student point of view, you know, it would be helpful.

00:27:38:01 - 00:28:04:19
John Azoni
And I think that's where we that's where length, video length starts to become an artificial barrier here is that like I don't think enough marketers are realize the times in which someone will actually really want to watch something that's long. And this would be one of those times where someone is they want a piece of information and they want to sit and absorb that experience.

00:28:04:19 - 00:28:23:13
John Azoni
It's like when I listen to podcasts, I don't like the real short ones because I want to sort of sink into something for a while, you know? And there are times when, you know, people will do that. When you sit down to watch Netflix, you're not sitting down in and trying to get what you need out of that in 3 minutes.

00:28:23:13 - 00:28:56:07
John Azoni
You know, you're you're dedicated, you're you're on the couch, You've got your snacks like you're ready to go for at least an hour or something. And I think in these in these situations where it's like you really showing the experience, you can have a 20 minute video that gets really good engagement. And I've seen this play out on on YouTube where, you know, these students are doing this user generated content just day in the life stuff and and and they're like 15, 20 minutes long and the comments are like 60 comments of like, wow, this was great.

00:28:56:14 - 00:29:14:15
John Azoni
You know, from like perspective college students and they're going, this was so helpful. Thank you for putting this video together. It helps me see, you know, what I was looking for. And so, yeah, I think I think people I think we we we let video length influence our decisions way more. And it's just.

00:29:15:06 - 00:29:35:01
Jeremy Tiers
I totally agree and it's understanding John, how does our target audience or our target audience is like how do they process things? Right? And yes, obviously our attention spans are all very short as humans, like all that data is out there. It's like 6 to 9 seconds for most of us. But to your point, when we find something we care about, we will all 100%.

00:29:35:01 - 00:29:54:18
Jeremy Tiers
I mean, there's a reason that movie makers still make like two and three hour movies for things like Star Wars and like all that other stuff because they know people are wrapped up to your point in the story or they do a good enough job of creating a story that people want to get wrapped up in that you don't realize it takes that long.

00:29:54:18 - 00:30:19:01
Jeremy Tiers
And I used to show marketers and enrollment marketers videos that go on YouTube right now and literally search college day in the life, College Day in the Life. This call it during COVID, you could literally put covered this and there are tens of thousands of videos and you can be down this rabbit hole no joke for weeks John just have current students all doing this on their own and I always am like, do colleges not understand?

00:30:19:01 - 00:30:36:23
Jeremy Tiers
In some cases they have these influencers and it's the videos you're talking about. It's a 20 minute video literally showing them, pointing at their feet as they get up, put on clothes, eat breakfast, walk to class. There's my friend John. John say hi, John waves at the camera and it's like just showing bits and pieces of their day.

00:30:36:23 - 00:31:02:03
Jeremy Tiers
And so I think understanding that to your point on a platform like YouTube, we're totally comfortable watching a 15 to 20 minute video. But then if you're going to want to take bits and pieces of that and repurpose it, obviously you would want to cut it down for talk, for reals, for whatever. And it's just it's understanding how people use specific platforms and just what they're looking for from a relevancy standpoint, Right?

00:31:02:13 - 00:31:25:22
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. And I think for people listening, I would say a lot of these videos that I that I've seen that have this type of engagement are come a lot of them come from NYU. So I would and I don't know why I don't know. I've been trying to get a hold of someone at NYU. If anyone from NYU is listening to this, I want to talk to you about how are you getting these students to to do these these brilliant day in the life videos.

00:31:25:22 - 00:31:48:06
John Azoni
But if you search on YouTube for some of these, they're great and they're just they're completely not from the marketing team. You know, in one in one of the videos, the guy was like he he'd start he, you know, here's this day in the life. He goes through a bunch of stuff, but then he's like sitting in his dorm with his friends and they're talking.

00:31:48:06 - 00:32:08:10
John Azoni
They're like, rating the food in the cafeteria. And it's like a bad rating, you know? But it's so it's like it's like not favorable to the school and yet, like, you know, it's it's just real and and like that's that's kind of what I want to see if everything is 100% great, everything's great all the time. I assume this is coming from the marketing team.

00:32:08:22 - 00:32:36:02
Jeremy Tiers
I totally agree. I mean, show me any situation in life where, like, failure doesn't happen and like, everything's roses every day. And like, it just I mean, young people are very, very smart. We don't give young people enough credit, I think, as just humans and or people who work in higher education, Young people understand when something clearly, you know, has been quote unquote, overproduced or created as a marketing piece versus to your point, this is really authentic.

00:32:36:02 - 00:32:42:01
Jeremy Tiers
And this person like is being very genuine with me about how they feel or why something is happening to them.

00:32:42:01 - 00:33:23:08
John Azoni
Right. And then so just so people know the list that that was in your post. So Current Kurt Student Day in the Life Videos, Life in the dorms, food coverage from events on campus, popular places off campus where students hang out, what classes labs, clubs, orgs are really like. And then students talking about different struggles and challenges. I think you have popular places off campus where students hang out is a good one, and that was one of the ways I worked with University of Chicago recently on some like student and alumni interviews, and that was one of the ways that we kind of injected some life into the interviews because we were kind of hitting

00:33:23:14 - 00:33:45:12
John Azoni
a point where, you know, the responses they were giving were kind of very analytical and pretty straightforward. Were kind of like, Man, how do we how do we get like, how do we get some like laughing or some just just some like personality in here? And so we started asking like, if you had $500 to spend in Chicago, how would you spend it?

00:33:46:09 - 00:34:10:23
John Azoni
And it was like it really interesting to hear people's responses and were mostly food related. Like I would go to this restaurant, all you can eat, I would do this, I would do that, you know, And it was and I think that that stuff, that stuff's really interesting to me. I'm kind of like because because so much of the of the college experience is like, what's the location like, what's the what's the culture like around campus?

00:34:10:23 - 00:34:12:17
John Azoni
What am I going to be entering into?

00:34:13:09 - 00:34:34:21
Jeremy Tiers
Well, and to your point, there are certain things that you just can't change about your college, right? Like they're to be the same for everybody regardless, Right? The location doesn't move, right? Campus doesn't move 100 yards this way. It's it's where it is. And so to your point, if I didn't grow up in Chicago or the Midwest. Yeah, okay, maybe I've heard about Chicago, I've seen it in movies.

00:34:34:21 - 00:34:54:11
Jeremy Tiers
But like where near this campus is the coffee shop, the Starbucks? Where else do students like to hang out and study? Where do they when they want to go eat off campus because they get tired of the cafeteria food no matter how good it is? Because that's every college student was you. It was definitely me. Where do they go and can they walk there?

00:34:55:01 - 00:35:23:10
Jeremy Tiers
Is there a Segways? Do they have to like get in an Uber? Like how does any of that work? And it's just again, showing those bits and pieces. But from a current student point of view, because back to what you mentioned earlier, it's not wrong for admissions counselors or marketers to show it from somebody else's point of view, but it goes back to your concept earlier of user generated content versus, you know, content straight from, you know, the brand, the marketing department, whatever.

00:35:23:10 - 00:35:43:13
Jeremy Tiers
It just doesn't feel as authentic and land the same way when it's not a current student. And to be clear, everybody likes to utilize their tour guides or student ambassadors, which I'm all for. But if it sounds like that person's been coached and they're wearing a polo and they just smile the entire time, again, it's more helpful, but it's not going to be as helpful.

00:35:43:13 - 00:35:58:22
Jeremy Tiers
If you could find, obviously, somebody who's going to be a little bit more genuine and authentic. And I don't know, John, the thing that frustrates me the most as I ask was, why don't you do this? Because you have all this data. I mean, what you and I are talking about today, I know people know 98% of this.

00:35:59:07 - 00:36:16:14
Jeremy Tiers
And John, the answer I get from marketers is that. Jeremy it's not going to be on Brand Yeah, and I pause for a second. I go that you don't then understand how young people in Gen Z and Gen Alpha look at brand because it's what you described earlier, John, which is your brand is your people, your brand not.

00:36:16:17 - 00:36:33:14
Jeremy Tiers
I mean branding is taglines and yes, that's branding and it's important. But like students, I was at a school in New York earlier this week and I was training a financial aid team and literally in the middle of the training, one of the counselors says to me, Jeremy, can I share a story that I think applies to what you're talking about?

00:36:33:14 - 00:36:48:05
Jeremy Tiers
And I was talking about feelings and how it influences decision making. And she said, My daughter's a high school junior right now and we've started to take some visits and we were on a campus the other week and my daughter has said, you know what, Mom? I don't think I could see myself at this school. But you know what?

00:36:48:05 - 00:37:09:12
Jeremy Tiers
I want to go visit because my admissions counselor at this school has been the most responsive, helpful person out of any school that is communicating with me. So I'm willing to at least go look. And I asked her, well, how'd that visit go? And she said, Why? And my daughter said, Yeah, no, it's not what I want, but gosh, I'm going to keep them on my list, though, because the admissions counselor people connect with other people.

00:37:09:12 - 00:37:33:03
Jeremy Tiers
There are like 30 to 50 colleges nationally, and NYU might be one of them. Right. That have such a big brand of Stanford, Harvard, Yale, all the schools. We know that you can pretty much say almost every student, if they got in, would probably have that school on their list. Every other school. It's more about how do you differentiate and show and create more of those personal connections.

00:37:33:03 - 00:37:34:06
Jeremy Tiers
Right?

00:37:34:06 - 00:37:55:08
John Azoni
Yeah, The the idea of the idea that people think that they control the brand, you know, like the marketing team controls the brand. I listen to this, this speaker one time talking about branding and he was he likened it to a prison. He's like, Do you think the prison guards control the prison? He's like, No, the inmates control the prison.

00:37:56:18 - 00:38:01:01
Jeremy Tiers
The brand is what people say about you when you're not around, right, personally or as a college?

00:38:01:09 - 00:38:21:08
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say to them? Because because this is a question that comes up with with marketing teams a lot is like, do we somehow find a way to facilitate the student creating content on their own channels or do we try to incentivize them to create something? And then we hosted on our channel.

00:38:22:14 - 00:38:53:09
Jeremy Tiers
I, I'm sure, is. I think the answer is yes and yes. And I'll be honest, I haven't gone down the rabbit hole enough and don't have enough data and examples. I've seen done well to tell you it's definitely this way versus that way. But like to me it's all about testing, right? I think there are probably pros and cons to both of those meaning, you know, I can think and I don't have all the details here, but I know, for example, Colorado State University, I had some friends there who previously worked on the marketing team and in enrollment marketing who are no longer there.

00:38:54:03 - 00:39:14:03
Jeremy Tiers
And I'm sure this content probably still is all out there, but Colorado State and I don't know all the details behind it years ago created a whole separate YouTube page called the Rams Life. Now they're the Rams. That's their mascot. But there was no Colorado State logo or any sort of Colorado State branding on that page was just the new logo they created called the Rams Life.

00:39:14:13 - 00:39:42:04
Jeremy Tiers
And most of the content was just student blogs, right, that were posted on there. And I think part of the reason, if I remember this conversation with one of the team members was Jeremy, it's this psychological idea that even if we do it all right and put it on the Colorado main page, students still think, well, but this has got to be coming, like in some regards from like the marketing team or the versus if we put it on a different page where there's no Colorado State logo everywhere.

00:39:42:04 - 00:40:01:15
Jeremy Tiers
And like the branding is an obvious, it's just our students doing the same thing, but it maybe lands a little bit differently. And so I think again, both are positive in terms of our why, it's just I can't tell you what is going to be that much more positive because quite honestly, I only dare enough test cases out there right now.

00:40:01:15 - 00:40:11:15
Jeremy Tiers
Schools who have attempted that kind of stuff able to say, yep, we got all this data, here's what we found out. But if anybody's out there, I know John would probably love to know what says and and I would as well.

00:40:11:15 - 00:40:42:11
John Azoni
I would love to know. I like that you said testing, too, because I think that's a under communicated thing because you have everyone's an expert. You know, everyone says this is the way to do it. You know, my lens is the video world and every video says video is the answer to all your marketing problems. And let me be the one to tell you it's not it it it it's it's something to try, you know?

00:40:43:12 - 00:41:12:13
John Azoni
And I think that that really goes for anything that you put into place. What works for one institution might not work for yours. And who knows why? Like who knows what cultural, social, economic factors are playing into that. But you really do just have to test stuff, learn from experts, listen to podcasts and stuff. But but, but eventually you got to go try some stuff and you got to just go with what your own data says is working.

00:41:14:04 - 00:41:34:19
Jeremy Tiers
Because I think you and I would argue there's enough other data out there nationally to tell you what your target audience wants throughout this process, whether it's traditional or nontraditional students. And so I think schools just need to trust that lesson. Okay, 10,000 100,000 students are saying they want more of this and less of this. Well, let's at least try that knowing, guess what?

00:41:34:19 - 00:41:52:12
Jeremy Tiers
It still may not be executed the way you want, but it's not like you're just pulling a random idea of thin air. To your point. You're basing it on some level of data. And yeah, I talk a lot about failing, Right? And someone once told me John Fail stands for first attempt in learning. Yeah, it's always stuck with me, right?

00:41:52:12 - 00:42:12:19
Jeremy Tiers
Like, show me any human who doesn't fail doesn't exist. Right? It doesn't matter how smart you are. The president fails, right? Like we all do. And so it's hard and I'm empathetic to it. You know, because I suck at a lot of things, too. And it's hard to try new things sometimes. But I mean, that's what we have to do if we're going to serve.

00:42:13:05 - 00:42:19:17
Jeremy Tiers
And that's the way I would frame it. Our target audience, the way they want to be served, which in this case is all these students and families looking at colleges, right?

00:42:20:04 - 00:42:29:16
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jeremy, are there any schools doing doing doing this well that you've that you've come across?

00:42:30:03 - 00:42:48:04
Jeremy Tiers
Well, you mentioned NYU. I like their stuff, too. And I mentioned Colorado State, others that I constantly look at their feeds on that I have found are, you know, more aligned with the things you and I talked about today, the University of Michigan, Boston University, Go.

00:42:48:09 - 00:42:48:15
John Azoni
West.

00:42:48:15 - 00:43:14:17
Jeremy Tiers
Virginia Liberty does a lot of good storytelling. Smaller colleges, Siena, New York, Babson, those type of schools, I think more than others. And I'm sure there's a ton out there. I don't know because again, obviously I've not been on every social media page of every college in this country and university. But but those in particular, I find, do a better job of producing or sharing authentic content.

00:43:14:17 - 00:43:24:17
Jeremy Tiers
That, again, is is from a current student point of view, hitting on a lot of the things that you and I talked about today, which I mean everything I talked with you about today is all based on data.

00:43:24:17 - 00:43:43:23
John Azoni
Yeah, I love that. I like following you because, because your perspective comes from data and and, and I think that's I think that's a good there's a Kyle Campbell is another good follow because everything that he posts on LinkedIn is just like so data heavy and it's like that's just really interesting.

00:43:45:07 - 00:44:02:01
Jeremy Tiers
Well it's fun right Because it's not the guess where it takes a lot of the guesswork out of it, right? It doesn't give you all the answers. But like I tell people all the time when I do training workshops, one of the funniest things for me is I know this stuff is going to work for you. If it's not working and you haven't tried it, it's just then you have to adjust to it.

00:44:02:01 - 00:44:19:22
Jeremy Tiers
What if you're an introvert doing this versus an extrovert? And like, what if you're talking to. So there are tweaks that 100% have to be done, but the ideas are out there. And so I just really would encourage anybody listening to this. I mean, sit down, come up with something and test it and try and then measure it, right.

00:44:19:22 - 00:44:43:13
Jeremy Tiers
Because measurement is important and I'm sure you've talked about this before, it's hard. Measuring things on social is is not easy. Sure. Not going to tell you it is. But I mean, you know, engagement is one metric that I truly feel like on social, John. And you know, even through other communications that colleges use needs to be prioritized more and by engagement, I don't just mean likes.

00:44:43:23 - 00:45:01:01
Jeremy Tiers
I mean how many to your point, you mentioned earlier these blog videos you would find. Right? How many comments are there on those 15 and 20 minute videos? Because people are going to take the time and comment and share. I mean, those are those are pretty important metrics to give you an idea of. Okay, well, that worked. Let's do more of that, right?

00:45:01:19 - 00:45:24:16
John Azoni
Yeah. And if you and if you look at the algorithm for a lot of these social sites, I read recently that a like is worth something minimal like one view or something like that. But a comment is worth like 15, you know, So like these, these, these social media platforms are really prioritized engagement in the form of conversation and community.

00:45:25:19 - 00:45:46:06
John Azoni
And so that really that for me on my content is, is is kind of what I look for the most is are people commenting, you know, cool if they liked it or hit the clap button on LinkedIn or whatever. But but like what really tells me if I've like hit a nerve is if, if they're commenting and people are talking about it.

00:45:47:00 - 00:46:03:22
Jeremy Tiers
Well it's like you and I today, right? We were both on LinkedIn at one point this morning and and, and I was sharing a post about, you know, blocking time and how important that is. And you, of course, commented. Right. And if anybody looks at that post, what you'll see is I spend on average at a bare minimum, an hour a day on social, not all at once.

00:46:04:00 - 00:46:32:12
Jeremy Tiers
It's broken up throughout the day today. I'll probably spend about 90 minutes and I'll say of that 90 minutes today, John, 70 of will be commenting on other people's posts because to your point, it's a different level of engagement. When either people comment on something you say and or you comment on something they say, and then maybe that allows you to develop a relationship with somebody who, again, you've never met or you want to start to connect with, or you have some level of agreement with in terms of interests and other things.

00:46:32:12 - 00:46:51:00
Jeremy Tiers
And so, you know, that's why I spend so much time on that, because, you know, it allows us to be able to do all of the things when it comes to building relationships and, you know, trying to understand, well, why does John do it this way or why does he think that's important? Or where does all this come from that he's, you know, making these kinds of comments?

00:46:51:00 - 00:47:03:17
John Azoni
Mm hmm. Exactly. Well, Jeremy, this has been a great conversation. Appreciate you coming on. If people want to work with you or have you come present or whatever, where can they find you?

00:47:05:03 - 00:47:29:17
Jeremy Tiers
So the best way to get a hold of me is by email. And so it's my first name all in j e r e m y at Dan Tudor, which is Dan t u d as in Dog O Arkham, Jeremy at Dan Tudor recom is the best way. And if you want to learn more just about the kinds of services we offer, you can go to the website which is admissions with an s all lowercase.

00:47:29:17 - 00:47:39:01
Jeremy Tiers
So admissions dot Dan Tudor that's at D.A. you d0r again all one word lowercase dot com so admissions dot dan Tudor dot com.

00:47:40:05 - 00:47:42:16
John Azoni
All right. Awesome. Well thanks so much. I appreciate it.

00:47:43:13 - 00:47:45:10
Jeremy Tiers
John. Appreciate the opportunity to be here with you.