Higher Ed Storytelling University

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:23:10
John Azoni
My guest today is Sarah Wharton. Sarah is the senior strategic communication consultants at University of Missouri System and manager of the media production team. And she's got we chatted a couple of months ago about just storytelling, just kind of talking shop, and she mentioned this 4 to 4 point approach to storytelling that she has. And I thought it was really intriguing.

00:00:23:10 - 00:00:28:14
John Azoni
And so we invited her on to talk about that today. So that's we're going to talk about. Sarah, welcome to the show.

00:00:29:05 - 00:00:31:11
Sarah Whorton
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

00:00:32:08 - 00:00:37:19
John Azoni
Yeah. So you're you're background screenwriting, right?

00:00:39:02 - 00:01:09:00
Sarah Whorton
Correct. My background is in film and video. And then as I wandered through my career, screenwriting became more important. And so exploring that while also being employed in the higher education space has been an interesting alignment of those things and how it affects my work and how I tell stories. So I didn't initially think it would have that alignment, but as everything with art, it always finds its way to where we're at.

00:01:09:13 - 00:01:10:04
Sarah Whorton
Yeah, cool.

00:01:10:16 - 00:01:15:11
John Azoni
So tell me something. You know, on a personal level, what's something that people would be surprised to know about you?

00:01:16:22 - 00:01:46:06
Sarah Whorton
I think most people would be surprised that I initially, I was big in theater as a high schooler and almost went in and got a degree in theater and was like, committed hardcore. I think most people who know me would describe me as like quite the introvert. So and theater tends to we tend to think of like the most extroverted individuals as being that I have not stepped on a stage in a long time.

00:01:46:10 - 00:02:00:20
Sarah Whorton
So so but it's still there. That passion is still there. That like terrifying moment before you step on stage and you have to just force yourself to do it. That comes in handy a lot and and work and life.

00:02:01:10 - 00:02:25:06
John Azoni
Yeah, I identify with that. I'm such an introvert and and yet if it's some sort of performance, I can get up there and be a totally different person. And it's so weird. Like, if it's a if it's like a public speaking kind of thing, or even on this podcast, like I was over at my dad's the other day and he's like, I listened to one of your podcast episodes.

00:02:25:06 - 00:02:41:17
John Azoni
It's like, I've never heard you talk that much. Okay, I was like, I know it's different. It's just different when I'm like asking the questions, but if I'm like at a party or something, if I meet you at a networking event, I'm you're going to walk away. Being like, that guy is super awkward.

00:02:41:17 - 00:02:57:03
Sarah Whorton
Yes. Yes. But there's something about that like adrenaline rush where, you know, you can't go back like it's you only can go through it, but it's like. So survival instincts on high alert and you're just like, I'm going through it. Yeah. It's almost like.

00:02:58:03 - 00:03:00:03
John Azoni
Playing a character of your, you know, a.

00:03:00:03 - 00:03:01:08
Sarah Whorton
Different character that's like.

00:03:02:02 - 00:03:03:11
John Azoni
Not yourself, you know?

00:03:03:12 - 00:03:21:23
Sarah Whorton
Correct. Right. It's all of those, like, insecurities, doubts, fears. Like they get pushed to the side fast because they have no place when you're like, in it and needing to like, you know, say something or present yourself. So it is it's it's it's sort of addictive to.

00:03:22:12 - 00:03:23:06
John Azoni
Oh, for sure.

00:03:23:06 - 00:03:25:05
Sarah Whorton
Yeah. That like adrenaline rush. Yes.

00:03:25:06 - 00:03:41:13
John Azoni
Like I wish I was I wish I had the talent to be a standup comedian because I, I follow a lot of comedians. And I just imagine that, like, if you just know your routine really well, if you know your set and you know where you're going to get the laughs, that's got to be like that's like cocaine.

00:03:41:13 - 00:03:47:08
John Azoni
I mean, like you just yeah, you're just delivering it. You just got the crowd just like putty in your hands.

00:03:47:17 - 00:04:18:05
Sarah Whorton
Yes. So, yes, but I feel like the only way they get there is there were times that were like, horrific on stage. Well, no way for sure. Or there was like a heckler or something. Yeah, because that's the only way they know that. How the structure, how the story should land, where the laugh should come. Yeah. So, but yeah, it's got to feel good after all those trials to come out and just nail it and have the audience in, it has to be a highlight of things.

00:04:18:05 - 00:04:19:02
Sarah Whorton
Yeah. Agreed.

00:04:19:19 - 00:04:26:10
John Azoni
So tell us about your journey to tell us a little bit, but tell us about your journey to screenwriting and higher ed specifically.

00:04:27:09 - 00:04:27:18
Sarah Whorton
Sure.

00:04:28:12 - 00:04:31:11
John Azoni
Screenwriting and video production, I should say. I may include that part.

00:04:31:17 - 00:05:03:00
Sarah Whorton
Sure. Or so. I graduated from my undergrad with a degree in digital filmmaking, which is basically video, but it was a little more fiction based as far as storytelling. But the technical side was very video digital heavy. After that, I did a lot of freelance work, touched reality television for a little bit, decided that I would like something a little more stable.

00:05:03:07 - 00:05:33:14
Sarah Whorton
I live in Missouri, so Mizzou or the University of Missouri was needing video people. So I thought, Oh, I'll just do that for a little bit. I've been there coming up on 12 years. So obviously that was a small stop in that and but I still loved doing that creative fiction side, telling stories in a different way. So I decided to pursue an MFA in screenwriting and television writing.

00:05:34:23 - 00:05:59:08
Sarah Whorton
And so yeah, that's just sort of even though what I do for work is storytelling, it's nice to be able to take pieces from each kind of storytelling that's slightly different lenses that they look through. Mm hmm. So, yeah, that's sort of how I found. And yet again, I'm still in higher ed, which surprises me every day that I'm still here.

00:05:59:20 - 00:06:09:09
John Azoni
I love I love those kind of stories when people, like, stumble into a job that they thought was just temporary and you're just there for years and years and years.

00:06:10:10 - 00:06:35:08
Sarah Whorton
Yes. And part of it's like the people I mean, I think sometimes that's why it's I got into video and film is that you get to encounter people who have very different life experiences, who oftentimes of the reason you're interviewing them is because they had a success or a milestone hit. And I just find people very fascinating. I love listening to their stories.

00:06:35:08 - 00:06:49:01
Sarah Whorton
I love learning from them what other job do you get to meet? So a variety of people, this diversity of people and experiences, it just yeah, I think that's made me say.

00:06:49:14 - 00:06:59:18
John Azoni
For sure what kind of a school is University of Missouri system like? What is it like? Is it large? Is it smaller? Tell me about it.

00:07:00:12 - 00:07:32:14
Sarah Whorton
Sure. So the University of Missouri system is a system of of universities, public education, universities and the state of Missouri. There's four different universities within the system. The largest is the University of Missouri, Mizzou. You've seen them from the Cotton Bowl. And that definitely those big public institutions oftentimes the majority of students are those typical undergrad students on campus experience.

00:07:33:18 - 00:08:02:10
Sarah Whorton
And then there is KC, which is in Kansas City. It certainly appeals to that undergrad population, has a sports sports team. I almost said, like basketball is has sports at basketball and a variety of other things. So it has some traditional elements of that undergrad typical higher education experience. But most students don't live on campus, so it is still a bit of a commuter campus.

00:08:02:22 - 00:08:38:17
Sarah Whorton
The University of Saint Louis, Missouri, Saint Louis and Saint Louis. And it's one it's definitely a commuter campus, more nontraditional, offering night classes, things of that sort. A very rare to find a full time student. I mean, that's a big generalization, I should say that that's the abstract. But there are students that are there full time. There are students that I think live on campus, but mostly it's more of a commuter campus offering that flexible city for a variety of students.

00:08:39:03 - 00:09:14:07
Sarah Whorton
And then University of Science and Technology is in Rhode Island, Missouri, and it has more of a focus. And those engineering science based degree programs and areas of study. So there tends to be a large on campus. Even some of the graduate students who live on campus, they also have robots that will deliver food on campus. So when you go on campus, it really is like a very different place than other places within the system.

00:09:15:13 - 00:09:32:12
John Azoni
That's cool. We we have a sushi place by our house, which is so fun to go to. It's like a conveyor belt style. And so you sit down and there's like a conveyor belt that that goes by. You can just pick out whatever you want. And then this little robot comes and brings you your pop and stuff like that.

00:09:32:12 - 00:09:40:03
John Azoni
And so it's it's like it's like just out of this world. It's like, so funny to you feel like you're in the future.

00:09:40:21 - 00:10:01:22
Sarah Whorton
Yes. Yes. My colleague and I were in Rolla this December interviewing some graduates. And the best thing was like, we definitely felt like we were coming to like such a different world because every time we'd look at would be like, There's a robot. Follow it. Oh, it's getting stuck. No, don't get stuck. Go. Keep going. Oh, it's okay.

00:10:02:04 - 00:10:10:12
Sarah Whorton
It's okay. I got out. It's fine. So we definitely looked like newbies versus the others that were just like, this isn't. This is every day for us.

00:10:10:13 - 00:10:34:08
John Azoni
Yes. Normal. Yeah. Okay. So that that that makes sense because I was going to ask what's the system part of it? So it's it's you guys are kind of like the the umbrella organization over top of these schools and does all the does the marketing is it centralized through. Sure you guys in the system level or is it like or do they all have decentralized marketing departments.

00:10:35:08 - 00:11:06:17
Sarah Whorton
That's a very complicated answer, John, as I'm sure most people at higher education would understand, is that the answer is yes, all of the above and more. Each campus certainly has its centralized marketing department, sometimes even departments within individual schools and colleges will have dedicated marketing individuals. I work for a unit called Missouri Online. We promote solely the online degrees and certificate offerings throughout the system.

00:11:07:02 - 00:11:23:04
Sarah Whorton
So our focus is specific to online education and we work to promote all of the different offerings throughout the system. So we'll work with all of the universities within the system. So yes and.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:24:06
John Azoni
Yes and.

00:11:24:16 - 00:11:25:00
Sarah Whorton
Yes.

00:11:25:20 - 00:11:53:22
John Azoni
Okay, cool. Got it. All right. We've got the we've got the the intro work out of the way here. What's let me jump down my question. Let's go out of order here. What? Tell me what is because I like I like what I liked about you coming on this show is was the actual, like formal screenwriting, you know, master's degree kind of kind of thing.

00:11:53:22 - 00:12:17:21
John Azoni
Because I think that like, there's this video, there's this video floating around. It's and it's there's like so many swear words in it, but it's it's this guy who is like, I don't know, Swedish or something like that. And they're interviewing him and I don't know what he does, but he's like he's like talking about how like people say they're a storyteller all the time and like, how they're not.

00:12:18:06 - 00:12:36:03
John Azoni
He's like, he's like, I saw a guy that builds roller coasters, like he designs roller coasters and he's like, I'm a storyteller. And he's like, No, no, the F you're not like, it's like you make roller coasters like that, and that's cool. But like, what's the story? It goes up and down and twists around like these. Like, that's a bullshit story.

00:12:37:12 - 00:13:07:21
John Azoni
He's like, people that write movies and novels and stuff, like, those are storytellers and so I have I have a I think I have a broader view of like storytelling because I think there is a lot of room for like, like storytelling in the marketing context is really a lot broader. It's kind of like these, like multiple anecdotes, multiple touch points that together help craft a narrative about your school, sort of.

00:13:08:11 - 00:13:15:13
John Azoni
But anyway, that's why I wanted to have you on was like a you're a real screenwriter.

00:13:16:13 - 00:13:20:05
Sarah Whorton
You know, certified fresh screenwriter. Yes.

00:13:20:11 - 00:13:23:14
John Azoni
So tell me, in your view, what is a story?

00:13:24:13 - 00:13:55:04
Sarah Whorton
Yeah, this is a good a question that I thought here is really my point. This is not certified by any one else. This is really my point of view. But I really think that a good story starts before the person tells their story and that key is listening. So oftentimes when we think about a story, there's a person telling the story and then there's the listeners or the viewers or the people taking in the story.

00:13:55:12 - 00:14:29:20
Sarah Whorton
But I actually think to be a story in its most like essential self is that before someone begins to tell a story, they've actually done some listening before that because an effective story takes into account what concerns and a viewer might have, a listener might have, what hopes they might have. I mean, when we think about like people sitting around the campfire, one of the reasons it's so compelling is that it's speaking to what they're facing, that they're seeing.

00:14:29:20 - 00:14:58:01
Sarah Whorton
Like, here's some concerns I have sometimes. Like if we're really talking about like a caveman that's like, don't want to get eaten today by yeah. Or like mauled by a bison. And the hopes is that I can, like, build this beautiful family or provide for other generations. So an effective story to me requires listening, requires really understanding. But oftentimes we make assumptions about what someone's views are or concerns or their hopes.

00:14:58:01 - 00:15:42:01
Sarah Whorton
But the only way to have the facts, the only way to really understand what that looks like is to listen before speaking and if that didn't happen, is it perhaps it's more relating information and it can still be a good story. It can be like that's a great story. I enjoyed it. But to really have a profound effect on the listener or the viewer or the audience is to really drill down into like that essential human core of like, here's what I'm afraid of, here's what I'm scared of, here's what things could look like if I remain hopeful or here's what it could look like if I face this thing I'm afraid of, there could

00:15:42:01 - 00:15:53:13
Sarah Whorton
be something really wonderful on the other side of it, or something very human on the other side of it. So to me, that's like my Sarah's definition of what a story is.

00:15:53:20 - 00:16:06:07
John Azoni
Interesting. That's that's really interesting. Yeah. So, so listening and really like sort of crafting the narrative for the audience that you are speaking to and stuff like that.

00:16:07:01 - 00:16:34:06
Sarah Whorton
Same story as a conduit versus I'm just going to tell my point of view that sometimes can be useful in certain scenarios, but oftentimes stories can be a conduit for connection. So really leaning into that and understanding that it's coming from someplace to be delivered to someplace, and that those are two very essential parts of an effective story.

00:16:35:00 - 00:17:01:07
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. And like what I love about storytelling is that conduit for for connection. And the example that always comes to my mind is like when I was a kid and, you know, my parents used to take us to church, I didn't want to go and all this stuff. And but like, you know, I went to one of these megachurches where they have, like, you know, back then they would talk about like the latest Tom Cruise movie coming out and somehow connect it to Jesus.

00:17:01:07 - 00:17:41:07
John Azoni
But but, you know, like, but like when the pastor or they would have a guest speaker or something would start telling a story, I was just like, zeroed in and like, it was usually something funny about their kids or marriage or something. And I was like 14. I'm like, What is even even then I'm like, That's hilarious. And like, it was just, yeah, just as soon as someone starts telling a story, I feel like your brain does something, you know, where you just want like you want to be just floating down this river of narrative and you want to see how this is going to resolve.

00:17:41:14 - 00:17:48:10
John Azoni
And then. And then you're, like, primed for the information you know, that's going to come. So I.

00:17:48:10 - 00:17:50:08
Sarah Whorton
Love that. Yes, absolutely.

00:17:51:18 - 00:17:59:18
John Azoni
So what is a pattern that you see too much of in higher ed storytelling?

00:17:59:18 - 00:18:24:15
Sarah Whorton
I will put a caveat that I don't think this is wrong. It's just a pattern that I see often is that often times higher education is saying like, here is a problem, or here's a situation in which a potential student might have the solution to that is our education or our degree are are offering and sort of leave it at that.

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:49:18
Sarah Whorton
You're like, here's your problem, here's your solution. Bundled up, perfect. It's going to be so easy when you get in there, no problems and sort of neglect that the fact that particularly in higher education, you should graduate is or to even pass the classes to earn a grade is to earn a degree. The way you earn something is by doing a lot of hard work and by really committing to that.

00:18:49:18 - 00:19:16:05
Sarah Whorton
And that's really difficult, particularly if you're in a place as a nontraditional student in which you have a full time job or some other responsibilities outside of these classes you're taking. It's a really difficult thing. And oftentimes that feels a bit scary to touch on. So it's a bit scary to say it will be hard. But our audience already knows that education is hard, like they already know that.

00:19:16:05 - 00:19:47:06
Sarah Whorton
So when we don't say it, it becomes like too. It becomes almost superficial in a way. It becomes definitely much more of a selling point versus an opportunity to authentically connect to that listener or viewer, because it looks really it looks beautiful and glossy when we're like, I want to advance my career. I took this degree, graduated, and now I'm the CEO of my business and everyone's like that.

00:19:47:06 - 00:20:22:01
Sarah Whorton
And that is a valid career path. That is an understandable career path. Of course we want to promote those stories. That's important. But it's also okay for that person to say, really struggled in this class. There was a semester I took off because of some family issues or I really wasn't sure if I could get through it because by bringing up the trials, the difficulties, the struggles give us an opportunity for that institution to respond with the other ways that they support their students.

00:20:22:08 - 00:20:49:17
Sarah Whorton
And that's, I think, what sets any experiences apart is that it's the people, it's the resources available. It's someone saying, I see that you were struggling in this class. Here's some additional materials, here's a tutor, here's a study group, here's a discussion board. Those are all wonderful things that can help any sort of students journey be much more effective of and and then to speak to that is incredible.

00:20:49:17 - 00:21:17:14
Sarah Whorton
It's profound. It's it's takes it beyond just the selling point and to the profound experience that higher education can often have because students find out so much about themselves through the process of going through something difficult, striving for something difficult brings out sometimes fears, doubts, concerns like is this the right path? And am I okay to do this?

00:21:18:00 - 00:21:47:02
Sarah Whorton
Can I do this with all these other things? So to say that those are really valid concerns and to then speak to how that university degree program responded to those with resources, with connection with other students, faculty, staff, I think is an opportunity to push it beyond a selling point into something that can really speak to an audience.

00:21:47:20 - 00:22:15:23
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah, that's really that's really good. And there's a study that I read about a few years ago that was something like and I won't even, like try to say what the how they did the study. I forget because I forget what it was, but it was something correlated to like when people experience pain, they are more emotionally connected to the mission or to the brand.

00:22:16:06 - 00:22:41:08
John Azoni
Like when they when they are when like people that go through conflict together have a deeper bond than people that have just gone through positive stuff together. And I think that's like I mean, we can see that on, you know, in the military. And I mean it's stuff like that where when, when you've gone through something together, that bond is, is so much stronger and, and Yeah.

00:22:41:08 - 00:22:51:08
John Azoni
And it's not like just you obviously you're not going to be like, you know, I want to do this thing. So I went to this school and nobody helped me and.

00:22:51:16 - 00:22:54:04
Sarah Whorton
It was terribly sorry. That's it?

00:22:54:05 - 00:22:56:07
John Azoni
Yeah. That's not what you want to do, but.

00:22:56:14 - 00:23:08:07
Sarah Whorton
Right. Yeah. I don't I would hope no one would volunteer if that was their experience because although maybe they're like, I need to tell you, it was awful. You should fix these things. Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:08:12 - 00:23:13:22
John Azoni
And I don't. I think that we don't give enough credit to how much people resonate with the idea of failure. Yes.

00:23:14:08 - 00:23:14:17
Sarah Whorton
Yes.

00:23:15:01 - 00:23:44:02
John Azoni
I posted a poll a few weeks ago asking people like, I forget what it was, but it's like, you know, would you be comfortable sharing like share? Should we normalize failure? Would you be comfortable sharing a story about failure? Or is that something that should be kept private? And overwhelmingly, it was like 100%, yes, failure. And then I start getting all these stories, you know, in my inbox that people are because I was like, I want to hear your biggest marketing fail.

00:23:44:02 - 00:24:15:04
John Azoni
And I like got some really good ones. And I and I just think that is, you know, that's not that's not something a school would want to do. Like, let's let's make a whole campaign. And how about how about this other failed campaign? You know, but but it's just the idea of, you know, people connect to connect with struggle and and failure is so much more relatable than, you know, than than success.

00:24:15:10 - 00:24:23:07
John Azoni
And, you know, Yeah. So it's it's definitely, definitely something to focus on, I think, in your storytelling.

00:24:23:22 - 00:24:48:21
Sarah Whorton
Yes. And like for me personally, my motto to myself is frustration is not failure. So to as a perfectionist, if I get to do something new and it doesn't magically happen, which it never does, by the way, never that invite that is not my skill set is to like approach something in a like perfect manner, but I like to hold myself to those standards.

00:24:48:21 - 00:25:08:05
Sarah Whorton
So sometimes when I get frustrated at trying something new, I think like, well, this is this is it for me. Like other people are doing it. They're not frustrated because they it's for them. It's not for me. So I'm trying to even coach myself to be like, frustration isn't failure. That's just part of the growth process. That's just part of trying new things.

00:25:08:05 - 00:25:40:09
Sarah Whorton
It's okay to be frustrated, keep going because it's not the end. It's just one pain point that you can get through. So, yes, I agree. I think and I and sometimes this is where I think there's a slight disconnect between higher education and other sort of marketing for other brands is that I think they're much more comfortable saying, here is a pain point or here's a frustration or something where there was a disconnect and here's how we responded to it.

00:25:40:17 - 00:25:59:07
Sarah Whorton
For higher ed does tend to we want the glossy stories where everything went well and we like the candidates that look exactly like we think they should look at the stories we like. And if they have these other things, let's not mention them because like, it's kind of a downer. Let's just keep it up an up light, light, light.

00:25:59:16 - 00:26:16:01
Sarah Whorton
But sometimes that can create a very sterile environment and not be very effective to the viewers that are already used to brand saying, here is some of the things that didn't go well, or here's how we pivoted or here's some things we're trying.

00:26:16:14 - 00:26:40:06
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's those stories that can lead to the information that you want to say. Yeah. So it's like, yes, it's like if you want to say that you have small class sizes and close student professional relationships, tell a story about a student that was that got into your school and was really struggling and like almost dropped out or something like that.

00:26:40:06 - 00:27:03:03
John Azoni
But this one professor, you know, really sat work with them and encouraged them in some way or whatever. I mean, that's the way that's, that is conflict that uplifts your brand versus, you know, conflict. That's just like telling on yourself because we all know that. And there's so much stuff underneath the surface that's not going right at your school.

00:27:03:03 - 00:27:29:13
John Azoni
We don't necessarily need to talk about that stuff, but where but like finding finding the finding the pain points in your subject's life, in their in their story and not just here's all the reasons why everything went perfect. Yes. You know, so cool. Do you do you feel like storytelling is is an overused word in a marketing context?

00:27:31:05 - 00:27:59:12
Sarah Whorton
I think it's overused. I, I think the reason storytelling comes up so often is because it is such an essential part of our lives that I think that's why that man building roller coaster is felt like he was telling stories because it is such an integrated part of how we connect with others, how we connect with ourselves, how we, you know, even dinner time with the family after a hard day's work.

00:27:59:12 - 00:28:27:09
Sarah Whorton
Like that's storytelling. So it's such an essential part of our lives that it's natural that it would seep into other parts of our society, including from a marketing context. I sometimes think there is a division between storytelling versus information sharing, and one of them is is more about communicate and a dialog versus I'm just going to I should have just released a press release.

00:28:27:18 - 00:28:47:07
Sarah Whorton
Yeah, sometimes that's what there wasn't. There was this one perspective and, and that I think is just a press release. Yeah just fair that's a there's a valid reason for those they have their time and place but I think those are slightly different from essential authentic storytelling.

00:28:48:01 - 00:29:16:06
John Azoni
Right. And I think, I think where it gets a little muddled is because I think we equate anything that has like any sort of deeper meaning, like if we're, you know, if we want to if a chef wants to make a dish, but it has a like there's a story behind it, or they want you to kind of feel something will say, you know, it's easiest to say like the dish this dish tells a story.

00:29:16:06 - 00:29:52:09
John Azoni
And maybe more accurately, if you were to nitpick that the dish isn't telling the story, it's it's pointing to a story. But but, but I think that's kind of how we use that word a lot. Storytelling is just like because because there's not really a greater way to there's not really a great way to to communicate like something that you're trying to say, but you're saying in a more in a less status quo kind of way, like in in a more trying to be a more emotionally impactful.

00:29:52:09 - 00:30:06:12
John Azoni
So, okay, let's talk about storytelling structure. So you have this four points approach. So let's just let's just jump into that. What's what's point number? Well, what are the four points? And then we can maybe go into them individually.

00:30:07:05 - 00:30:40:21
Sarah Whorton
Or so this is what I call the secret sauce of storytelling. And this is like one of my love languages, Like, I love this. And it and what we've talked about before is structure. That's really what sets apart maybe a a tool that's pointing to a story versus something that's essentially its story. And basically what I did was take the longer screenwriting structure, which is a lot of nuances, and then just pared it down to this four points structure that can be applied to higher education.

00:30:40:21 - 00:31:04:03
Sarah Whorton
And it's exactly a lot of the things we've already talked about. So number one is acknowledging the need and the person's in the participants life. So that is like, here's the reason I have I've come to this this block in the road or I've come to this choice on the road. Sometimes these come across and I want statements like, I want a career that's flexible.

00:31:04:04 - 00:31:27:15
Sarah Whorton
I want a career that allows me more time with my family. So acknowledging the need and the participants life, this is happens quite a lot in higher education. So it's an essential quick here's what is the need. And the second one is the solution. Again, things that we've talked about before and in higher education marketing, it's like you need this.

00:31:27:15 - 00:31:59:00
Sarah Whorton
Here's the solution. It's our degree, it's our program, it's our school. And the third point, which is what we've already talked about, which is acknowledging those struggles and this is again, where higher education marketing often stops because they that is scary. That feels that feels like dangerous territory to admit that a student enrolled in a program or a degree would struggle, would have these difficult periods.

00:31:59:00 - 00:32:28:00
Sarah Whorton
And then the fourth is the response exactly what we've talked about, which is those triumphs, that success. How did that struggle lead to that success? And oftentimes, the stronger the struggle, the more impactful the triumphs are. The success. And again, I think this is partly because exactly what we talked about already is that it's an essential part of the human experience, is to struggle through something and come out on the other side.

00:32:28:19 - 00:33:01:19
Sarah Whorton
I also think that oftentimes when we struggle with something, an external struggle like this textbook is dense or this professor likes materials in a certain way, and I just haven't quite figured that out. Oftentimes this external struggles reveal the internal growth that's happening. So sometimes when we have these external situations, it's really about facing our fears, our doubts, our concerns that we're not up to the task.

00:33:01:19 - 00:33:22:12
Sarah Whorton
Our concern that maybe this isn't like maybe we're not going to get the success this time. And then how did that person push through that? Because that's that's like where the like the beauty is. That's the exceptional part of being a human, is you hear about someone who is like, I have these fears, you have these fears, these are really legitimate.

00:33:22:17 - 00:33:50:09
Sarah Whorton
And I could have been swallowed up by them, but I pushed through it. And that, I think, is something that feels triumphant for that person. But as you're listening as a viewer, it's like I've had those doubts to look at what this person did. They didn't let them stop. Maybe that gives me a little bit of a little bit of boost to persevere for these the thing that I'm encountering in my life.

00:33:51:17 - 00:34:11:03
Sarah Whorton
So I think that these are so quick four points, very things that we've already talked about, things that are very much within our human experience. But higher education can get scary whenever we talk about struggles or trials or pain points.

00:34:12:10 - 00:34:46:23
John Azoni
Yeah, that's a great and that's a great structure to to to for schools to really have in their back pockets like meet or like problem solution. But don't stop there. Like there's it's what what else happened that wasn't completely rosy and then then what was the end result of that. And I think if you don't give people if you don't give people a chance to wonder how things are going to end up, yeah, the story is just not very sticky.

00:34:47:04 - 00:35:07:10
John Azoni
You know, if you like, if you ever read a book that just kind of like makes its point in the introduction and then just sort of like continues to reiterate the same like, like this book could have been like three pages and but you had to make it 200 till I get a publishing deal, you know?

00:35:07:10 - 00:35:07:17
Sarah Whorton
Yes.

00:35:08:21 - 00:35:29:20
John Azoni
So, yeah, like giving people by like setting up a question where like, you're not sure how that's going to resolve like how you don't like it's sort of like, okay, problem, solution, but not so fast because, because there's more coming. Stick around, you know, kind of thing.

00:35:29:20 - 00:35:58:19
Sarah Whorton
Absolutely. And I think to your point, one of the ways to do that is to establish those stakes, like when establishing the need of what that person has, that participant setting up some stakes. So like what happens if they don't get that same? Yeah, sometimes it can be like, I really need this because, you know, we're adding to our family or I really need this job because my, you know, I need to move because a parent is ailing or whatever it is.

00:35:58:19 - 00:36:18:01
Sarah Whorton
If we set up stakes, then it's like when we hear about something that's not going well, all of a sudden, you're right. It's that hook to be like, I'm I'm rooting for this person. Are were they going to get what they need? I'm in it and I'm I want to see what and how how did this institution respond to that?

00:36:18:01 - 00:36:26:23
Sarah Whorton
If I'm in a similar situation, how are they going to respond to me? So part of it, oh, I just need to use the fireworks.

00:36:26:23 - 00:36:44:23
John Azoni
The fireworks? Yeah, I my my previous guest last week, it kept it kept for no reason. I wasn't doing thumbs down or anything, but it was just it just kept doing like a thumbs down emoji. I'm like, and like, she's saying something really great and I just like.

00:36:44:23 - 00:36:59:00
Sarah Whorton
Thumbs down on this whole software. Does not approve of your positive. Yeah. Okay. The screen also is in favor of stakes and wanting to know things. Yeah.

00:36:59:09 - 00:37:09:12
John Azoni
Yeah. For people listening, you might have noticed a trend here in the last couple of weeks of conversation breaks and goes, Where are these fireworks coming from?

00:37:10:13 - 00:37:10:23
Sarah Whorton
If you're.

00:37:10:23 - 00:37:35:02
John Azoni
Right. Yeah. If you if you do like double double thumbs up or anything that looks like that, it's like it's I realize it's a it's a mac thing. It's a oh, I'm not even Riverside because it'll happen on Zoom or just too so there's some way you have to shut it off with, with, with Mac it's like the new update They just decided everyone wants this.

00:37:35:08 - 00:37:53:01
Sarah Whorton
Let's, let's just I I've noticed Zoom does not understand my sarcasm because sometimes I'm like, oh that's great. Thumbs up and it's not a real thumbs up sound. Right? Right. Don't mock my sarcasm. Let me lean into this feeling.

00:37:54:03 - 00:38:39:00
John Azoni
But stakes you mentioned is that that's really good. And I think what I find, you know, is, is that boring questions equal boring answers, you know, so if you ask really obvious questions, you're going to get a very predictable, low stakes answer. But it really takes skill and really some creativity in coming up with assuming it's like a documentary type style, like you're interviewing someone, but like coming up with questions that's like gets them to think beyond what the obvious answer would be, you know, and, and, and because you might just ask like, so tell me, tell me about something that you struggle.

00:38:39:00 - 00:39:01:11
John Azoni
And they'd be like, oh, I'd, you know, I don't know. I have dyslexia. So reading, reading was hard, but I got through it. So it's like, okay, it's like a little bit of conflict in there, but like, what do they feel about that? Like, what did they how did, how did that make them anxious? What? You know, Yeah.

00:39:01:11 - 00:39:35:00
John Azoni
What happens if they don't resolve that. What was what was going in their on in their mind and and stuff like that. So yeah I think it really comes down to Yeah. Those those asking questions that that get there and that's not an easy thing to come up with because it's like a social thing, you know. So some people are just really good at giving you deep responses and other people are just like, I'm just going to say whatever feels like the cleanest statement here, you know?

00:39:35:01 - 00:40:01:22
Sarah Whorton
Yes. So, so true. And I think for me, that's where my active listening skills have served me more than anything else, is listening for that answer where someone says, I have this, but it is fine. And to take a moment to say, Wow, that like that probably did offer some pain points or some frustrations. I was like digging in a little deeper because you're so right.

00:40:02:01 - 00:40:31:20
Sarah Whorton
All of us, even when we have to introduce ourselves at an event, there's two different bios you have. There's the one that's like, clean, great. I just want to give you this information and disappear. Or we can say little more of the truth of like, here's a little bit more information about me, but we have to trust that that person we're speaking to is is creating that place where we can divulge a little bit more.

00:40:32:08 - 00:40:40:00
Sarah Whorton
And sometimes that's where the active listening like, oh, they heard that and oh, they're they're kind of interested in learning a bit more about that.

00:40:42:03 - 00:40:44:13
John Azoni
And yeah, and then I think, okay, sorry, go ahead.

00:40:45:03 - 00:40:45:21
Sarah Whorton
You go ahead.

00:40:46:10 - 00:41:08:00
John Azoni
Oh, I was just going to say and I think that like that comes with setting expectations upfront about like, what is this? What is this environment about? You know, because people might come and be like, oh, I'm going to be in a marketing video, so I'm not going to tell this, you know, some dramatic thing that happened. I broke up with my girlfriend or whatever, you know.

00:41:08:16 - 00:41:21:23
John Azoni
Yeah, maybe that's not the place to talk about your break ups, you know, in a marketing video. But like, you get what I'm saying. Like, you know, you're going to be like, I'm just going to tell you what the marketing team would want to hear. Five stars, Everything's great, you know?

00:41:22:07 - 00:41:23:16
Sarah Whorton
Right? Yes. Yes.

00:41:23:16 - 00:41:41:21
John Azoni
But it takes like really setting that context to be like, here's here's what we're going for. And we want you to like kind of just be a little more vulnerable. We're not going to show this video to the world without you seeing it first. Yes. Final say and that. Yes.

00:41:42:01 - 00:42:19:22
Sarah Whorton
So absolutely. I think that's a very good point about setting expectations, creating that trust up front, creating an environment that says if we share and it goes a little farther than you're comfortable in the moment, know that it's okay to say I'm okay sharing this with you, but I'd prefer it not to be in the final product. That's okay, because I feel like that trust that was established in that moment continues through the rest of that conversation and becomes present, even if that specific part wasn't shown that trust was there, that trust is felt.

00:42:20:12 - 00:42:22:20
Sarah Whorton
So I think that's a very, very good point.

00:42:23:19 - 00:42:46:09
John Azoni
And if you go on a reality show, that's not the case. I, I think they make you sign a contract that says like you have no say in the edit, like we will paint you. However we want. And so you're like signing your reputation, a way to go on, you know, The Amazing Race. I don't know.

00:42:46:09 - 00:43:15:12
Sarah Whorton
Yeah well yeah. And I Yeah, exactly. There there is a different shift of that power dynamic. And as an end of each individual has to be aware of what they're sharing if they're comfortable with it. But if you're in the making race, you're also running around trying to beat the clock. And these other teams. It's a lot happening that there's probably not that filter saying, like I've said that about my friend that I'm racing with or.

00:43:15:12 - 00:43:25:07
John Azoni
Should I always it always boggles my mind when these people go in these confessionals on these reality shows and just talk completely honestly about other people.

00:43:25:07 - 00:43:26:11
Sarah Whorton
Yes. Because it's like.

00:43:26:21 - 00:43:48:18
John Azoni
They're going to watch this. It's like I don't know if it's like the producers being like, now, really? Tell me, you know, what a jerk this guy is like, you know, Or if it's just like they don't think that this is real. They don't think that this is kind of this is really being recorded. You know, it's just it's just boggles my mind.

00:43:48:18 - 00:43:55:13
John Azoni
I'd be like, yeah, I wouldn't have said that even if I thought that, like, I would I would be thinking for when this is going to come out, how is this going to look?

00:43:56:03 - 00:44:10:13
Sarah Whorton
Yes, it's sort of like internal external conversation. Like, what do I keep internally? That is like how I might really feel about a situation. But but yes, what do I then say externally? Yeah.

00:44:11:07 - 00:44:38:18
John Azoni
Yes. But like in this kind of context, obviously know we're so careful. And I, I mean, when I am editing, that's like a that's really important to me is like really kind of picking up on the, the nuances of what someone is saying and what they're comfortable with. You know, we had one edit I was working on recently.

00:44:39:12 - 00:45:03:03
John Azoni
Student was she's a graduate or something, but she worked for a big, you know, financial company, but she was kind of tiptoeing around the name of the company a little bit. And it kind of became clear she wasn't sure she was allowed to say the company's name or something like that. So myself and the client were just like, Let's stick a steer around that.

00:45:03:03 - 00:45:25:06
John Azoni
Let's not even try to, you know, put that in. It seems like she's uncomfortable, so let's not. But yeah, level of definitely trust and ethics and storytelling comes into play, not just putting the you know, you don't want to just put someone put someone's mess out there just because it benefits the school. And I don't think any school would do that.

00:45:25:06 - 00:45:35:14
John Azoni
But like but, you know, really thinking about does this benefit me and does this hurt and does this hurt anybody, you know?

00:45:36:12 - 00:46:14:09
Sarah Whorton
Yes. Yes, I a not that long ago I interviewed someone who made a choice of where to go to school based on their parents had gone to that same school. So there was a connection there. And there's a part of me that wants to dig into that a little more like, what does it impact your relationship with this parent that you're And it was clear that maybe there was some strain between those that relationship and that was not a place to dive into as much but that this this was a connection.

00:46:14:09 - 00:46:36:12
Sarah Whorton
And and that is sort of where that person was willing to leave it. And I agree. I think there you sense that there's a deeper story there, maybe a more compelling story. But you're right. If it's not, it doesn't serve the purpose. And it doesn't serve that person to talk about, then it's best to be left where it is.

00:46:37:02 - 00:46:52:03
John Azoni
Yeah. So are there any examples from, you know, higher ed that you think have done this kind of forced up approach? Well, or maybe you want to talk about something that your team has has done. What? What what do you think about this?

00:46:52:04 - 00:47:30:07
Sarah Whorton
So one of my very favorite videos was done by the University of Colorado. Continuing education is maybe like seven years ago, and it's touches on many of the things we've talked about already. It's called catch up I think is is what its name is on their YouTube channel and I can provide the link as well. But it is about a student who enrolls in the University of Colorado, maybe didn't quite maybe enrolled for other people and not for himself, ended up dropping out of Colorado and then coming back figuring out that story to come back.

00:47:30:14 - 00:47:54:19
Sarah Whorton
And it really is. I watch it and it gives me chills every time because not only is he willing to say, here's what's happening, he then says, like, the first thing I had to do is go to my new advisor and say like, this is what's this is my story. And she says, he has this quote where he's talking to his advisor about what his past has been.

00:47:55:02 - 00:48:23:14
Sarah Whorton
And she says, You're not underwater yet. You can still float. And the entire story is about how this faculty, staff and this person really believed that he could have that milestone, have that success, graduate with his degree. I've never seen another video that will just blatantly say this is a full story, but it's okay that this person dropped out.

00:48:23:14 - 00:48:47:23
Sarah Whorton
It's okay if that fit initially wasn't right for a variety of reasons, that doesn't mean his story's over and that doesn't mean we're not going to talk about why that wasn't a good fit and why this was the better fit for him. It's a beautiful story. It's compelling instantly in like the first 30 seconds, I'm like, I'm in Tell me more.

00:48:47:23 - 00:49:12:01
Sarah Whorton
I want to see this, like you said, sticky. I want to see this through because he's showing up in a very authentic way, the very compelling way, being very truthful. And I want to see what happens. So even I was watching it this morning and I like and like it was it because sometimes when we think of things like was it just impactful in the moment?

00:49:12:01 - 00:49:42:12
Sarah Whorton
But I watched it again today and I was like, Man, that's an incredible it's a bold approach for a higher education institution. And it's and it's so speaks volumes about the participant who is willing to be his most honest, authentic self. It speaks to the production team that also didn't shy away. And from the continuing education unit that said this is this is a story that many people relate to.

00:49:42:13 - 00:50:07:22
Sarah Whorton
Maybe that first brush with higher education was not a good fit for a variety of reasons. It's okay, but let's try again. Like what if we consider this again? Sounds good. It's a beautiful story. It's a bit it's about 2 minutes and 30 seconds, a bit longer than I think the majority of higher education stories sometimes tend to be 30 seconds to a minute, maybe a minute and a half.

00:50:07:22 - 00:50:26:19
Sarah Whorton
So it's a longer story, but the content feels right for that timing. So it's a lovely story. Still, it's one of the very few examples that I can think of that really sits in its truth. And it's a stronger story because it does that.

00:50:27:07 - 00:50:37:17
John Azoni
Yeah. Interesting. I will check that out. Yeah. You had me think I because knowing you were coming on, my my wife and I are watching the show Beef. Have you seen that.

00:50:37:18 - 00:50:39:21
Sarah Whorton
Okay. I haven't seen all of it yet.

00:50:40:11 - 00:51:01:11
John Azoni
Okay. I'm not. I won't tell. I won't. I won't spoil it for anyone. I will just say this. This is like a perfect example of, like, problem, you know, solution, but not so fast. Like, things start going way downhill. Like, you think you know where the story is going.

00:51:01:13 - 00:51:02:00
Sarah Whorton
Yes.

00:51:02:00 - 00:51:22:03
John Azoni
And then it. And then it just completely does a plot twist. And I think that's that's really interesting. Anyway, I just I just thought of that example because that's, you know, that's our current show that we're watching right now. And it's like it's a super good show. I really affirm a story perspective. It is really good.

00:51:23:12 - 00:51:49:10
Sarah Whorton
Yeah. And it's cleaning up and award season. So I think that also speaks to not only the story but the performers, directors, producers, everyone involved too, as willing to be like, Let's all go all in. Not holding our breath here. We're not hesitating, we're going all in. And that's the sense I get from watching the episodes that I have, is that it feels all in no and it.

00:51:49:10 - 00:52:09:18
John Azoni
Feels so raw. It's like very raw. Even in even in just how they handle the title sequences. Like the like, you know, when each each new show has a has a title, but it's like this let's like this, like this, this really, like, alarming noise that comes on. And it's like some, like really ugly abstract painting in the background and like, weird text.

00:52:09:18 - 00:52:15:15
John Azoni
It's just like, it's just like no one else is doing that, you know? But. But it works.

00:52:16:11 - 00:52:46:13
Sarah Whorton
It's like they know exactly their DNA. They know who they are and they are going to lean in and not attempt to water that down to fit in. And so I agree. I think it stands out. It's and I also think it captures that attention right away. You're not cleaning your house while you're watching that show, right? You're sitting on the couch invested in and even I think, like I need a little break Like that was so intense.

00:52:46:13 - 00:52:52:02
Sarah Whorton
I need to, like, walk around the block, take a minute. Yeah. Which I love.

00:52:52:02 - 00:53:06:10
John Azoni
Yeah. Yeah. It got us in the first episode. My wife went to watch it and I was like, That doesn't. I don't know. It looks too artsy, Not not into it, but I was like, I'll give it one episode, and then we're just hooked.

00:53:07:03 - 00:53:09:19
Sarah Whorton
Yeah, you're right. Yes.

00:53:10:06 - 00:53:19:07
John Azoni
Yeah. Well, cool. This has been great. Sarah, Where where can people connect with you at?

00:53:19:07 - 00:53:34:18
Sarah Whorton
Yeah, I am on LinkedIn. I don't know my handle. I'm a terrible marketer for myself. I think we've seen that. I don't even know. I think it's like at sawh0rton.

00:53:35:12 - 00:53:38:12
John Azoni
Search Sarah Wharton Sarah with an h and.

00:53:38:12 - 00:53:38:23
Sarah Whorton
Then thank.

00:53:38:23 - 00:53:42:04
John Azoni
You wh0rton.

00:53:43:02 - 00:53:55:07
Sarah Whorton
Thank you, John, for being a much better marketer than I am. I. I ask these questions all the time to participants. But yeah, I'm like, I don't know, internet search the internet for me.

00:53:55:07 - 00:53:55:20
John Azoni
I'm the same.

00:53:55:20 - 00:54:01:00
Sarah Whorton
Way. Yeah. So that's, that's an area of improvement, isn't it?

00:54:01:06 - 00:54:20:18
John Azoni
I was on a podcast at my old job and my boss made fun of me so hard about that because we talked before the episode that I was supposed to plug this like free like PDF download that we had. But at the end of the episode he asked me like, Where can people connect to that? John? And I'm like, I took that literally.

00:54:20:18 - 00:54:25:12
John Azoni
I'm like that. I was like, I don't know, like I'm on Facebook sometimes, I guess, like.

00:54:27:02 - 00:54:33:18
Sarah Whorton
I love Farmer's Market on Saturday. So do you want to see probably why you're fine? Yes.

00:54:34:16 - 00:54:54:05
John Azoni
He's like he's like isn't there something you want to do? So why don't you ask? I was like, Why don't you ask me if asked me like, Oh, is do you have a resource? People can. Well, that would have been a more direct question. If you ask me a question, I'm going to tell you the answer it is.

00:54:54:10 - 00:55:13:23
Sarah Whorton
I do think sometimes like especially when we're doing like it's so focused on like am I getting the content and my responding to this is their thing. Okay, so the mind is going in a variety of places. So sometimes I like the easiest question is like, I don't know, I live in Missouri, so I guess like here, come by.

00:55:14:06 - 00:55:15:16
Sarah Whorton
But yes, correct.

00:55:16:00 - 00:55:36:17
John Azoni
Yeah. The hardest question for me to answer ever is just like when someone asks me what's new, I'm like, that is that is just a stumper. Every time I can never remember what's new. I guess my, my, I was just standing there like an idiot. And I'm like, I don't know. I've been, like, working and.

00:55:37:05 - 00:55:38:15
Sarah Whorton
Yeah, just. Just like.

00:55:39:13 - 00:55:45:19
John Azoni
Still a dad, you know? So husband, not divorced, you know? Haven't gotten divorced since I last saw you.

00:55:47:05 - 00:56:15:17
Sarah Whorton
Yes, Yes. It's those and those icebreaker questions like, tell us three about yourselves. And it's like I am living is one that's good. I like food. Yeah, I slept well last night, so I think other people would go around and give, like, really profound, useful answers. And it's like, I should have gone last. I didn't know the rules here.

00:56:15:17 - 00:56:16:23
Sarah Whorton
Got it? Yeah.

00:56:17:09 - 00:56:36:20
John Azoni
My favorite. My favorite one to use for that is like, when you tell, like, two truths in a lie. Yeah. Or whatever is I say that my stepbrother is a drag as a drag queen in San Francisco. And that's very that's true. He's like. He's like he's like. He's got to he's got to following this. He's such a cool guy.

00:56:38:02 - 00:56:43:08
John Azoni
But but yeah, they're like, well, I can't be like, if it's really, you know.

00:56:44:11 - 00:56:58:14
Sarah Whorton
But I also see your slight like you include other people in your two traits in a lie. So yeah that's the key is like expanding who you truth and lie about.

00:56:59:00 - 00:57:22:12
John Azoni
Yeah we had the the the the the best the best Christmas we had was when. So he, he used to date. This is totally off topic but we'll just leave it in there. He used to date because I just love telling the story he used to date someone that was like season five of of the RuPaul's Drag Race or whatever.

00:57:22:17 - 00:57:47:22
John Azoni
He season five winner or something like that. And he's got like 1,000,002 million followers on this. Like, like if you know anything about the drag community like you this person and and he came to our family Christmas the the year that you know they were dating or whatever and he was like singing show tunes and like it was just oh so cool.

00:57:49:10 - 00:57:51:13
Sarah Whorton
That you'll never forget that Christmas.

00:57:51:13 - 00:57:52:10
John Azoni
Never forget.

00:57:52:12 - 00:57:54:00
Sarah Whorton
Father. Yes.

00:57:54:00 - 00:57:55:16
John Azoni
Yes. So, all right.

00:57:55:16 - 00:58:05:15
Sarah Whorton
Anyway, you enjoyed that. So I was yeah, There were steaks in there because I wanted to know how that Christmas went, and it sounds delightful.

00:58:05:18 - 00:58:15:05
John Azoni
Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, thanks for coming out. This is. This is a fun conversation, and, yeah, it's great having you.

00:58:15:16 - 00:58:21:13
Sarah Whorton
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and letting me talk about stories, which is just my favorite. So thank you.