Higher Ed Storytelling University

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:28:17
John Azoni
My guest today is Joshua Charles. Joshua is a senior marketing and communications leader in higher education. He's also a volunteer and board member for High at Web, a professional development network supporting digital professionals who work in higher education. So in this episode, we're going to be talking about Joshua's work at Rutgers Business School and how all the facets of his role kind of come together to fill classrooms with students at Rutgers.

00:00:28:17 - 00:00:30:10
John Azoni
So Joshua, welcome to the show.

00:00:31:12 - 00:00:32:16
Joshua Charles
Yeah, thank you for having me.

00:00:33:16 - 00:00:35:15
John Azoni
Is it do you go by Joshua or Joshua?

00:00:36:09 - 00:00:39:09
Joshua Charles
Either assign Josh is good for today.

00:00:39:21 - 00:01:00:10
John Azoni
Okay. Josh Got it. That's always my inclination. I used to work with a Joshua that, like, insisted on being called Joshua. So it was like, very. I always just wanted to just say Josh So cool. Well, let's kick things off here with a little icebreaker. What's something that people might be surprised to know about you?

00:01:00:10 - 00:01:35:03
Joshua Charles
Josh I think well, outside of Higher Ed, I'm a big hockey fan, so being based in northern New Jersey, my of course favorite team is the New Jersey Devils and something that they might be surprised to know about me professional wise. My original background was actually in game design and programing and that eventually stumbles through to website development, which is actually how I got into marketing.

00:01:36:09 - 00:01:37:23
John Azoni
What were some games that you designed?

00:01:39:01 - 00:02:05:11
Joshua Charles
So this was back during college, so we never got into into the industry itself. And it was actually it was precisely because I was thinking about, do I really want to be confined to certain areas of the country? Because that's where the development studios were and just the they do great work, but it's just a very volatile industry, not to say that Higher Ed doesn't have its ups and downs, but that just wasn't the life for for me.

00:02:05:11 - 00:02:23:01
Joshua Charles
And I wanted to be able to have something stable for for my family. So I never got that far. We did create a bunch of fun, really simple games and like C++ and C Sharp and those sort of programing languages way back then. So nothing that anyone would know, but it's still fun for us.

00:02:23:14 - 00:02:47:16
John Azoni
Yeah, that's really cool. I really respect people that can code and do you know that kind of development stuff. I always just think like that would be really hard with all the variables of, of a video game to like. I just don't I have no concept of how that works, but I, I, I respect you for, for knowing how it works.

00:02:48:15 - 00:03:13:18
John Azoni
So on your I saw I pulled this off of your your LinkedIn profile, so maybe it's outdated. We'll find out in real time here. But your role at Rutgers Strategic planning Team leadership in development enrollment, marketing, communication strategy, marketing technology, analytics and reporting relationship building, organizational leadership and budget management. Is that correct?

00:03:14:15 - 00:03:15:03
Joshua Charles
Yes.

00:03:15:17 - 00:03:41:10
John Azoni
Awesome. So just a couple of things that you do not stay part time. I so yeah, I mean, so I guess in this episode we're kind of be talking, you know, touching on most, if not all of those to kind of just get a sense for how Rutgers is leading a cohesive marketing strategy. But tell me about because I know you have a team of like ten people.

00:03:42:02 - 00:03:43:18
John Azoni
Tell me tell me about the layout of your team.

00:03:45:11 - 00:04:13:10
Joshua Charles
Sure. So there's there's two ways to kind of look at this part one and part two. The first part is that we have a Web strategy team that is inside of the communications and marketing office and it is intentionally separate from it. And we made that change ten plus years ago. I know sometimes at some institutions there, web people are part of it and it is separate from communication and marketing.

00:04:13:10 - 00:04:42:16
Joshua Charles
But a website is a communications and a marketing platform first and foremost, and not a technology platform that's secondary. So that's why we're situated the way that we are. And for our communication in the marketing team, there are essentially three divisions I've seen all sorts of variations of this in other schools, but for us it is our Web strategy group, which is the team that I lead, our communications group who oversees social media and articles and media coverage.

00:04:42:21 - 00:05:06:03
Joshua Charles
And then there is sort of like a dedicated paid advertising group and collectively we all are in service of enrollment, marketing goals and brand advancement. In addition to how we can continue to tell stories about current students as well, and of course promote our faculty and research and things like that. But that's essentially the three pillars of the team.

00:05:06:11 - 00:05:12:19
Joshua Charles
And there are 11 positions, but there's one vacancy, so there are ten people at present.

00:05:13:13 - 00:05:36:19
John Azoni
Cool. I like I like that you you combined the web just took it out. It put it in with the marketing folks. I was talking to somebody just a was having a discovery call with a potential client, a corporate client, and they were like, well, we want to do more. We want to do more video content. And, you know, and they're not just going on their website.

00:05:36:19 - 00:05:59:23
John Azoni
It was it was very outdated. And, you know, we really had this whole conversation of like, well, it really starts with your website, you know, like you can do all this video content over here, but if you're driving them to a website that's not telling the story that you want it to tell or it doesn't have the right copy on it or just is outdated, it's clunky, that is really going to be working against you in a content marketing strategy.

00:06:01:02 - 00:06:05:10
John Azoni
So I like that. Is that I mean, is that kind of along the lines of your thinking as well?

00:06:05:23 - 00:06:47:17
Joshua Charles
Precisely. Everything that is in the pathway of the students enrollment jersey journey should be under the purview of one vision. Now, it doesn't necessarily have to have all of those individuals report to the same person, although that is certainly helpful. But there should be one entity, one person that is giving a vision for how all of those different pieces and then the folks that are overseeing those pieces are working together and report up into a unified vision for how you're going to get all of those different internal stakeholders to march in the same direction towards unify set of goals.

00:06:48:14 - 00:07:02:21
John Azoni
It's very cool. I love that. So you've been doing some work around like how you define and unite each area of the team into kind of a streamlined Markham workflow. So what's that process look like? Have you face any challenges with that? Some of that?

00:07:04:00 - 00:07:45:10
Joshua Charles
Sure. In for for context, one of the things that we're doing actively right now, which we just had a team meeting about yesterday, is just going through that process and developing it so that we're all on the same page. So I start with two goals. One, I would love to see a shared understanding from everyone on the team about what everyone's role is, what those responsibilities entail and what and so that each other, everyone on the team understands what everyone else's role is as well, so that we all have the same understanding about how we can move forward to accomplish enrollment specific goals.

00:07:45:10 - 00:08:05:18
Joshua Charles
And then of course, the second goal being of the first was the shared understanding. The second goal is some sort of living document or guide that whose purpose is to inform going forward, not just who we are today, but our future selves. And we need to refer back to, Oh, that's right. This person is responsible for this particular task.

00:08:05:18 - 00:08:28:19
Joshua Charles
We should always be thinking about how we carry knowledge forward and we're not all going to be here a year or two or three years from now. We want to be able to have documentation that is kept up to date that informs our present selves, our future selves, and our future team members that aren't here yet to be able to have this understanding about where we've been and where we're trying to go.

00:08:29:00 - 00:08:52:17
Joshua Charles
So those are the two outcomes that I sort of say, like that's, that's what we want to achieve. And then we have the conversation as a team about if the, the big organizational goal is how do we advance enrollments than if you kind of picture this as a sort of large spreadsheet. And on the top left side, you're going to have your highest level goals.

00:08:52:17 - 00:09:14:19
Joshua Charles
And on the the far right side, you're going to have the the granular level work that goes into all of the things that lead up to that point. So starting from the left is we're trying to support specific organizational goals and mass enrollments. From there. The vehicle that we use to do that is that integrated communications and marketing strategy or plan.

00:09:15:11 - 00:09:35:10
Joshua Charles
From there, there are specific categories that make up the integrated communication, the marketing strategy, which is there's going to be advertising, there's going to be social media, there's going to be content creation, there's going to be website management, all of those sort of big buckets that define the functional areas that make up what we define as integrated communication.

00:09:35:10 - 00:10:03:12
Joshua Charles
The marketing insight into each of those categories are going to be like your day to day specific tactical things that you would sort of use as examples to define. When we say advertising, it means that's when when we say email marketing, it means this. It's all of the sort of steps that are involved. And for each of those individual task, who is responsible for doing that work and then having a clear understanding from everyone on the team about who is responsible for that work.

00:10:03:20 - 00:10:30:05
Joshua Charles
And in order to do that task, let's say creating digital ads for Google search, who does this team member rely on internally, on the team as well as externally? So if, for example, the advertising team member relies on our videographer to help develop video assets to use in digital ads via Google, then that's a good way to to highlight that interaction.

00:10:30:05 - 00:11:06:20
Joshua Charles
And then of course, they collaborate with each other about how we how are we going to collaborate together so that we're on the same page about how I can accomplish my goal and how I can help you understand how we can work together in order to to do these things. And then you also identify who are the external folks that you rely on, is that students, if you are if one of your task is to create new stories, for example, that talk about the student experience at Rutgers Business School, then obviously that involves some level of interviewing for students or the NBA staff, for example, or current management to get them to talk about Here

00:11:06:20 - 00:11:36:13
Joshua Charles
are the benefits and here are the metrics that we have on file that let us know how we are doing placing or helping our students find jobs. So again, from the from the top, it's the organizational goal of enrollments that are integrated communication the marketing strategy feeds into. And then there are all of these sort of buckets or categories that make up the integrated communication, the marketing strategy, like the marketing, like advertisement, like website management analytics.

00:11:37:00 - 00:11:56:07
Joshua Charles
And then there are the granular, granular level, day to day task that go into those categories that help define who's responsible for what. And then we identify where that collaboration is within the rest of the team for each of those specific tasks as well as where is that collaboration with all of our external stakeholders within the school and students?

00:11:57:08 - 00:12:23:01
Joshua Charles
And then by defining those things, having conversations about them, having conversations specifically about how we collaborate together, that gives us the shared understanding of what is this entire experience like, How does it help students, how does it help us continue to get better and to learn how we can optimize different areas? Should there be certain tasks assigned to different people?

00:12:23:01 - 00:12:43:21
Joshua Charles
For example, where is there overlap? Where are there things that are happening that maybe we don't need to do anymore? All of that is part of the process and what I'm doing now is just helping to define the goals and how we can structure conversations around how we advance those things and how we talk about them as individuals and as a larger team.

00:12:44:04 - 00:12:52:10
Joshua Charles
And that's been a really valuable experience that we're continuing to have conversations on a weekly or monthly basis to advance.

00:12:53:20 - 00:13:19:17
John Azoni
That's awesome. And you seem like a, you know, a leader that really understands that structure and clarity around roles. It influences morale and collaboration and all this stuff. And you might, you know, there's probably, you know, some creative roles and just coming from a creative perspective, you know, the the misconception about creatives is that we're just loosey goosey, like whatever, bro.

00:13:19:17 - 00:13:43:08
John Azoni
Like, you know, just I'll figure it out that day when I come in and I'll figure out who does what. I'm very much like that, stresses me out like a lot. And I like some of my most like, you know, I can think back in my career, you know, both in video production and in nonprofit, when I've had those moments of like, oh, finally, like some structure.

00:13:43:08 - 00:14:22:02
John Azoni
And it was and was really after like, roles were more clearly defined. Who should I who is looking to me for what? Who am I? What am I looking to you for? You know, and especially with video production. And I feel like there's in my world, there's a lot of overlap in roles. If you if you look at like an internal production house, you might have a, a project manager, you might have an operations person, you might have an account exec, you might have a creative director, and all of those people might have some sort of touchpoint with the product or with the communications.

00:14:22:07 - 00:14:45:01
John Azoni
And so it was always, you know, working at a previous production company, we were always trying to figure that out, Like, let's let's really define roles. And I remember just those times when we kind of figured that out and did the sort of quote unquote boring work of doing the paperwork and the, you know, the processes and procedures and stuff, it's like that is actually very helpful, at least to me as a creative.

00:14:45:01 - 00:15:05:06
John Azoni
And I know to everyone else when you just know what you're expected to do every day. I mean, that's I've read, you know, just about management and stuff that that's like a huge indicator of job success or job happiness is like, do I know what's expected of me and do I have the resources to, you know, to to implement that?

00:15:06:00 - 00:15:06:15
Joshua Charles
Exactly.

00:15:07:16 - 00:15:23:09
John Azoni
So let's see. And I keep getting distracted by all the you have so many great books on your bookshelf back there, but one of them that kind of related to this question we were just talking about was the burnout epidemic. And you have that one facing forward to the camera. So I imagine that one's like your your practice.

00:15:23:10 - 00:15:25:06
John Azoni
So tell me about that book. And just curious.

00:15:26:07 - 00:15:52:18
Joshua Charles
So my book stuff is very intentional. I certainly have not had a chance to read everything on here. And the very quick background on this is that it's a combination of books, but also toys and other trinkets that were given to me by people who are important in my life. So for the book specifically, I went through our Master's program two years ago, finished, graduated in 2022 for digital marketing.

00:15:53:01 - 00:16:13:23
Joshua Charles
And through throughout that process I had bought all of these different books. I wanted to read and I thought I would have time to read until I started taking my classes. And so they sat there and I'm like, Oh, I need to finish my classes. I just need to get to graduation. And then it became, Well, this is now a present for my future self.

00:16:14:06 - 00:16:32:18
Joshua Charles
When I graduate, I will finally be able to have the time to sit down and read the books that I intended to read, and that's what helped sort of create this shelf. So let's burn out specifically, which is one of the ones that I haven't had a chance to read yet. But the entire point of of me reading articles online.

00:16:32:18 - 00:17:08:13
Joshua Charles
But in addition to that, getting this book was to remind myself, but also to remind the team like we can talk about ways to develop collaborative systems internally and with other stakeholders when it comes to how we tell stories to prospective students as well as current students and alumni and other audiences. But we should do so while we are respecting the people who are telling those stories and making sure that our team has the resources, has the clarity, has the space to not feel like they have to be 100% on all the time.

00:17:09:05 - 00:17:46:04
Joshua Charles
And this concept of of leadership and how we should be approaching burnout and providing opportunities for people to feel as whole as they can be on whatever days that they feel like they can continue to do the awesome work that they do. Just just want to remind myself and remind everyone else that at the end of the day, for as much great content that you see on websites and as much great storytelling that we see, there are still human beings behind the scenes who are doing a lot of that strategic and tactical work.

00:17:46:04 - 00:17:51:14
Joshua Charles
And we need to be respectful of what it takes to go through that the day to day that that we do.

00:17:52:12 - 00:18:07:10
John Azoni
Absolutely. I love that just this this question occurred to me as you're talking you what what is your opinion, I mean, in relation to self-care and, you know, taking care of the team and stuff like that, What's your opinion on unlimited PTO?

00:18:09:01 - 00:18:34:11
Joshua Charles
Oh, well, you know, I think so for, for clarity for, for anyone who's care. So for Rutgers, we don't have that system. You know, like folks earn a certain number of vacation days for how long they've either been in a role or depending on the type of role that they're in, it kind of changes as well. So for some some people they have like 15 to 20 vacation days a year and then you continue to to earn sick days and things like that.

00:18:35:02 - 00:19:09:21
Joshua Charles
For me personally, I am not someone I'm not a 9 to 5 type of person. I'm not a you have to be in the office type of person or anything like that. I really don't care as long as my responsibility is to provide structure and guidance in clearly defined goals and to help people feel like they have the resources and the support in order to reach those goals and help reduce barriers, open up ways to collaborate, reduce silos and all of those things.

00:19:10:05 - 00:19:42:21
Joshua Charles
How someone does their work is up to them. When they do that work, it's up to them where they are, where they do that work, it's up for them. And then when they need to take time off, by all means, take as much time as they need. I as as a leader and in our school have to have systems in place in order to make sure that if somebody's taking a day off or week off or two should not materially impact the work that we're doing because there should be systems in place in order to keep in general our momentum going.

00:19:42:21 - 00:20:07:21
Joshua Charles
So I think if we were in a situation where there were unlimited days off and things like that, to me I would just continue to fall back. On what systems do we have in place in order to support people, in order to make sure that when they do need to take time off for any reason at all, that I don't even need to know that we have systems in place in order to continue to aspire and work towards our goals.

00:20:07:21 - 00:20:18:06
Joshua Charles
And that's kind of how I approach that particular thing. But I just wanted to give context to like what Rutgers current system is in relation to unlimited PTO.

00:20:18:13 - 00:20:51:18
John Azoni
Yeah, I mean, most and most, I think very few organizations have unlimited PTO. And I just it's outrageous. We're talking about the burnout and stuff like that. It was just an interesting discussion about giving people too much freedom in how that is actually counterproductive to morale and things like that. I think people I just I think it's funny because, like, we assume that people would prefer this open concept of loosey goosey and, you know, an open floor concept even I worked at.

00:20:52:02 - 00:21:14:02
John Azoni
But like, there's a there's a I used to work at a nonprofit where we went to this open concept in like, you could have a meeting anywhere, Like you could just grab a lunch table and do your answer emails and have a meeting or whatever. And like, some people loved it and some people were really hated it. But just like people that loved the structure and the structure and those walls kind of keep them happy and healthy in a job.

00:21:14:02 - 00:21:18:13
John Azoni
And then there's other people that are like fields you can find. I don't know, that was just a bonus question.

00:21:19:12 - 00:21:52:13
Joshua Charles
Yeah, I would just very quickly add to that. Like, I think just like you said, structure is is valuable to folks and and there are going to be some folks who don't like structure I think is trying to find a balance with the team that you have while also just recognizing what the needs are for the organization and then to keep in mind how to keep if you're trying to set up situations where you want to encourage interaction between the team, which is obviously a big conversation.

00:21:52:13 - 00:22:26:09
Joshua Charles
Once we went remote from COVID, then those still need to be optional settings. We can't force people into forced social gatherings. I know it's 2024 and the pandemic feels like it's kind of in the in the back burner at this point. But we still should be utilizing and learning from how to have intentional ways to structure and build collaboration amongst teammates, whether they are on campus, at home, or in some other location.

00:22:26:14 - 00:22:51:15
Joshua Charles
I still think the lessons learned from how we lead teams from that era is still important. Now in the context of if you didn't have guardrails, what would that look like? Or if you did have guardrails and intentional ways to be social and things like that. Just being thoughtful about what that looks like and how how it could work, I still think is valuable for us to continue having those conversations.

00:22:51:20 - 00:22:58:13
Joshua Charles
Even for institutions which may have strict official policies, it's still valuable conversations to have.

00:22:59:03 - 00:23:20:09
John Azoni
Yeah, to. All right, love it. So I want to talk about some of your current marketing technology, because I know that that's something that is instrumental sort of in your role. How do you and your team approach engaging with prospective students who have expressed interest in your programs? You know, what's that marketing tech stack look like? So tell me a little bit about that.

00:23:22:01 - 00:24:06:17
Joshua Charles
Yeah. So kind of going back to the question that you asked earlier about, like how do we develop a integrated communication, the marketing strategy? Like what are all of the different pieces involved in doing that? Related to that is, well, we can talk about what a top to bottom integrated communication marketing strategy looks like, but there's also value and thinking about it in terms of student lifecycle and then what technology you need to support all of those different states or more commonly you can think about it in terms of that enrollment funnel where top of the funnel, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel and what activities do we need to support along that

00:24:06:17 - 00:24:28:23
Joshua Charles
journey and what technology is going to help us do those things from top to bottom? And for us, I do think it's valuable to think about it just very simply from the the funnel at the top level. We're talking about anything that can get folks to just have a general awareness of us or at some point get to our website.

00:24:28:23 - 00:24:45:15
Joshua Charles
And so of course we have to have cloud web hosting because years ago we didn't have websites that were stored on internal servers and that did not go well, particularly when the power went out. So you can you can kind of imagine from there. So Cloud cloud Web servers, open source.

00:24:45:15 - 00:24:55:05
John Azoni
I thought about that like if you had a on an internal server, the power goes out. I just always think that like websites just kind of exist in the air, you know?

00:24:55:05 - 00:25:19:07
Joshua Charles
Yeah, it's one of those things where you hope you don't have to think about it in 2024, but that was our life like ten years ago. So we definitely want to have like obviously every school and university is going to need a website. So all, all of the things that are involved with that, your actual seems to make sure that it's a system that the students can easily navigate, but also the staff can easily manage on the back end.

00:25:19:12 - 00:25:37:06
Joshua Charles
That's something that sometimes gets overlooked when we do website redesigns. So you need your web hosting of course as well. Then you need your measurement tools for the website. So that's going to be Google Analytics for nowadays, for better or worse, as well as any SEO tools that that folks are using like Google Search console and things like that.

00:25:38:00 - 00:26:02:07
Joshua Charles
As far as and of course in terms of getting folks to the website, there is going to be Google ads and LinkedIn advertising and all of those things at the middle of the funnel, I think is where you get really interesting. You certainly need some sort of CRM. So in our case we're using Salesforce and that's going to be the system of record that says here is who the prospect is.

00:26:02:23 - 00:26:32:18
Joshua Charles
And with that you need an engagement platform that connects to that CRM. So in our case, we're using Pardot seem to be Salesforce Marketing Cloud. That's our marketing automation pathway. And those two things should be connected to an application portal because we're our team is primarily focused on graduate students versus undergrad. We have a application portal from enrollment, our access and enrollment, our X plus Salesforce plus eventually marketing cloud.

00:26:33:00 - 00:27:01:01
Joshua Charles
Those three things are the the tech stack that makes up the application journey as well as the email marketing and SMS journey to go along with that. And that's where we really do a lot of the engagement. I realize that those sort of two step process, you can try to increase the number of people who get to your website and then try to convert them, or you can also try to increase the conversions on the people that are already in your system or try to do both.

00:27:01:01 - 00:27:25:02
Joshua Charles
So definitely getting folks to the website, the the tools that we have on the website as well as any of the advertising tools, digital advertising tools that we use there. And then once they do that, can we convert them to that? They can move into our Salesforce marketing cloud, eventually our application portal and a lot of that work happens there using those sort of tools occasionally.

00:27:25:02 - 00:27:50:09
Joshua Charles
We obviously need to continue to experiment. I of course, this is the big thing right now. Any other tools that are out there that might be beneficial to help us assess, help us implement something, help us brainstorm together. So of course we need project management tools and internal communication tools as well. We use Basecamp for sure. A lot of that, all of those things are vital as part of the experience.

00:27:50:23 - 00:27:56:09
Joshua Charles
And of course for graphic design you need Adobe Creative Cloud or anything similar to that or Canva.

00:27:56:22 - 00:28:28:14
John Azoni
You know? Yeah, I saw someone who is a QML for it because he's like, I got a, I got a canva a camera pro account. So I'm a graphic designer now. So okay, as let's see. So in a large organization like you guys have, how do you foster collaboration between different teams and different departments to ensure kind of like a cohesive student experience?

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:34:14
John Azoni
Because I imagine there's a lot of, you know, management that has to happen outside of the four walls of your team.

00:28:36:11 - 00:29:01:13
Joshua Charles
Yeah, and this is something that I would imagine any higher team or business school team maybe has a similar approach. I think the first thing is that you have to identify what outcomes you're looking for. And so for us, it's we want to be able to tell authentic stories about our students. And then when you break that down, an MBA student is different than a master's in digital marketing student, which is different than supply chain management.

00:29:01:13 - 00:29:25:02
Joshua Charles
Student which are different than undergrads. So list your priorities because it's, you know, you have to sort of focus on which programs are going to bring in the numbers that your organization is asking. So definitely need to start with priorities. But once you have a list of like, okay, these are the folks that we want to spend the most time in, and then these are other folks that we want to continue to be involved with.

00:29:25:02 - 00:29:49:20
Joshua Charles
Just need to For me, I think it's as simple as reaching out and say, I would like to get together and talk about how we can as a communication, the marketing team help tell stories about the students in your program. And let's have a just sort of introductory meeting where you meet our team. We meet your team and we talk about this is what we do, this is why we do it and this is how we think we can help get more students to your program.

00:29:50:00 - 00:30:15:08
Joshua Charles
I think we just have to be honest and talk about what is the big picture goal. What we're trying to do is beneficial to the organization as a whole and it's beneficial to your program. You are the closest to your students. You know them better than anyone else. How can we interact with them? Maybe interview some folks from different majors or different backgrounds and these are the stories that we want to tell.

00:30:15:14 - 00:30:38:21
Joshua Charles
This is kind of the timeline that we're thinking for this application cycle and have some sort of regular cadence of communication with these groups where you get together. And we talk about, again, those outcomes from the very beginning. We talk about our shared goals, we learn from them. What's most helpful for them as well. What, what, what would make it easier for us to collaborate with them?

00:30:38:21 - 00:30:56:08
Joshua Charles
And you have those conversations upfront. And then as you go through this process, as you know, whether that's going to be a meeting, a semester or whatever the cadence happens to be, you come back and you say, This is what we set out to do in the beginning. This is what we've done. These are the stories that we've been able to share.

00:30:56:08 - 00:31:27:13
Joshua Charles
Here's the analytics on them. Here's how we think they've been influential. And you just have conversations about the work that's going on and and continue to talk about here's what we've we feel like we've done well. Here is areas to continue working towards. But you have open and honest conversations about what you're trying to achieve, how they can get involved, that the team that you're working with and you continue to establish those relationships over time, you just have to be able to do that same thing for each individual audience that you're talking about.

00:31:27:18 - 00:31:51:04
Joshua Charles
In our case, we have two undergraduate programs, not one, and we have 18 graduate programs. So that's a whole lot of meetings. Yeah, we have to be able to sort of figure out like, what is that cadence going to be that's reasonable while still being able to tell the stories that's going to bring in students, that's going to help advance the school.

00:31:51:04 - 00:32:22:14
John Azoni
And so connected to that is like this content strategy of telling the student stories and stuff like that. So how do you guys think about content and aligning content strategy with each student journey? Like what? What role do each of those departments so, like, have their own content teams or person or is that all going through the central team or how is that how is that working to address those different student profiles?

00:32:22:22 - 00:32:48:08
Joshua Charles
Okay. Yeah. So each of the different departments, you know, they're primarily folks focused on the student experience and then you have your comms team who's going to have most likely the expertise on like content strategy and things like that, which is the case for, for, for us. And again, I think it helps by defining what stories do we want to tell and are those stories resonating with our audience.

00:32:48:08 - 00:33:06:22
Joshua Charles
So some of that's going to be a need to look at the data from the existing content that we have was performing well, both the quantitative data as well as the qualitative data by asking students just interviewing different students, you know, why did they apply, what information that they read along the way, what stood out to them? What did they like about the school?

00:33:07:03 - 00:33:45:03
Joshua Charles
You need to be able to have those lines of communication with students so that we know what they are interested in and what might be helpful for the next round of students going forward. So we just have to talk about what those goals are when we interact with each of those different departments. This is what we're trying to achieve and make that the focus, and then we can have those ongoing conversations with their staff, help us find students, have conversations with students, what's working, and then also set up those more objective assessment reports over time where we're sending out surveys to students about what information is helpful for them to make decisions about their their

00:33:45:03 - 00:33:45:16
Joshua Charles
education.

00:33:47:07 - 00:34:20:05
John Azoni
That's great. I like that you actually talk to the students directly because I think there's there's too many assumptions made about, you know, what should the student journey look like or what should, you know, what would in theory would be effective way of communicating towards them. But yeah, I'm just in my own personal, you know, journey as a business owner, having direct 1 to 1 conversations with people in my audience has been absolutely instrumental to to everything that I do.

00:34:20:05 - 00:34:49:19
John Azoni
It's just so it's amazing when it's like, how could I have ever made decisions without that? You know? Okay. And then so how do you approach understanding the needs and journeys of different student segments? So obviously you mentioned talking to students, but do you guys you mentioned survey data and stuff like that. Is there any any other data that you're collecting that's informing those strategies?

00:34:50:22 - 00:35:21:02
Joshua Charles
Yeah. So the first thing is the application itself and what questions might be on there. Certainly there are there's privileged information that needs to be separated from marketing, but there are other questions on there that are identified that are helpful to understand psychographic demographic information about the the student, but more specifically sort of putting the application portal aside, I do think there is value and something that we're starting to do now.

00:35:21:02 - 00:35:51:11
Joshua Charles
Those surveys we have outlines particular questions that we feel could be valuable and we're working through like, okay, well if we had to try to elicit additional information about students that could help us with targeting, for example, in which different markets we want to go into. In addition to understanding that a digital marketing student is not the same for everyone there, what we find is that there are actually three different segments within our digital marketing master's audience.

00:35:52:17 - 00:36:12:16
Joshua Charles
Do we ask some questions on the form when they go to the website for the first time and they're just not finding out about us in addition to the last first name, last name, email address, and what program they are most interested in, are there additional questions that we could ask there? But just want to be mindful not to ask too many because you don't want to turn people off from in the form.

00:36:13:00 - 00:36:35:23
Joshua Charles
So some questions there once they get into that email journey, there are additional questions that you might be able to ask a little bit more long form at that point. Maybe once they've submitted the application, might want to follow up with them again at different stage and again this application portal. And then even after that, once they are an admitted student, there might be additional questions that you might ask because their perspective might have changed since then.

00:36:36:10 - 00:37:13:15
Joshua Charles
Same thing with current students. So just thinking about what is the typical journey like for a student from when they first find out about us to going to the website and coming in to our marketing automation system, to going through the application to being an admin, the student to being accursed, and then eventually to being an alum. Where can we strategically try to gauge who these students are, where they come from, information that would be helpful for us in the long run by asking questions at different points along that journey that are not that make the most sense for that point.

00:37:13:15 - 00:37:28:17
Joshua Charles
Along the way. And they're not intrusive to help us move forward. And we just have to figure out or sort of nail down which questions do we want to ask along each of the different paths there. But that's the conversations that we're having right now to get more insights.

00:37:29:11 - 00:38:02:20
John Azoni
Cool. That's helpful. So I know that, you know, we talked a minute ago about your MarTech stack and the most challenging, especially when you're introducing new technology platforms and things like that, to kind of get everyone on board and manage those platform changes. Have you guys experienced maybe any like any any rough roads in in terms of incorporating and learning new platforms or anything, any barriers like that?

00:38:02:20 - 00:38:27:19
Joshua Charles
But yeah, I'll give two quick examples. The first is that we recently tried to experiment with some very popular SEO tool. It's very good, but it's also a very involved. So there's a lot of work that you need to get to do to set up a system in there that will produce meaningful insights over time. Realistically, we just didn't have the time.

00:38:27:19 - 00:38:44:20
Joshua Charles
When you go through all of the priorities and the leftover time that was available, there just wasn't time left over to really put in the work to utilize the tool the way that we were going to want to use it and to pay thousands of dollars for a tool that we're using 10% of it that just wasn't in the cards.

00:38:44:20 - 00:39:11:19
Joshua Charles
So that was a quick one, and that helped us kind of instead of focusing on some rush. And so to that extent, without having a dedicated SEO person, we'd rather focus on discoverability as a whole. And then the second quick example is that this is more of a budgetary leadership challenge that I think folks would have the transition from Pardot as a marketing marketing automation tool to Salesforce.

00:39:11:19 - 00:39:37:15
Joshua Charles
Marketing Cloud is going to be a big journey. We're going through it now. There's all sorts of things in the works, but this is a very expensive process, well over six figures. And you know, once it gets to a certain dollar amount, like there has to be conversations and prepping with executive leadership ahead of time about this is where we're trying to go.

00:39:37:19 - 00:40:02:15
Joshua Charles
This is why this is what's involved, this is what's coming. This is how much it's going to cost. Here's how we could potentially manage that transition financially at a time when budgets are being tightened. So I think we're ultimately going to get there. We're going to be able to switch to marketing cloud. But again, at a certain dollar amount, there is going to be like Deane's level conversations ahead of time.

00:40:02:15 - 00:40:25:20
Joshua Charles
And I think it's very valuable to start having that sort of laying the groundwork for that that process or that that budgetary item as early as possible and continue to tie it back to how it's going to help the school and solve challenges that they are focused on at the deans level, which is ultimately getting these students. So that's a it's a different issue than some.

00:40:25:20 - 00:40:34:13
Joshua Charles
RUSH And it's but it's still marketing technology related. And it's it's it's connected to things that I think any leaders is going to have to navigate.

00:40:35:10 - 00:41:05:13
John Azoni
Yeah, I mentioned Salesforce. I feel like that's a really intimidating program to to get into, especially when you consider that there are entire job roles just dedicated to being the Salesforce person, you know? And then when you think about like, you know, you may or may not have that or you may or may not have an SEO person and then just trying to like cobble together some extra time to, like figure out some keywords or something, something like that, that's a, that's those are tough problems to navigate.

00:41:05:13 - 00:41:29:20
John Azoni
Okay. And then lastly, I just want to talk about because I know organized organizational silos are, you know, just something that you talk about from time to time, and it's a common challenge in higher Ed, How do you personally go about like building those lines of communication and collaboration with groups that interacts directly with students? And how do you break down those those silos.

00:41:30:22 - 00:41:58:19
Joshua Charles
You And now this is something that I sort of been in an in and around for, for quite a while that for me it starts with being genuine about wanting to just get to know what people do. So I don't start a relationship by talking about what I need. I start a relationship by talking about I want to get to know more about what you do, what your team does, and let's start there.

00:41:59:08 - 00:42:26:16
Joshua Charles
And I just think it's very informative for myself and I genuinely want to know because I find it interesting. I think once you're able to have casual conversation on that level, it makes it a lot easier to talk about, Oh, this is what our team does, this is what I'm doing. Here is how I think we can work together to do this thing and it's going to have this impact on the school, and it's also going to help your team get more students.

00:42:26:22 - 00:42:51:22
Joshua Charles
Or even if it's not about getting students, it might just be simply sharing marketing strategies. So for example, we have a executive education department and they have their own marketing folks and that and that group. Our charge from Dean's office is to focus on degree programs, not non-degree programs. But I still find it valuable to have monthly meetings with the executive team where we we share strategies.

00:42:51:22 - 00:43:16:13
Joshua Charles
We talk about what's working marketing wise, what's not working. They have their own Salesforce instance, they have their own Pardot instance, but being able to have conversations about marketing processes and tactics and sort of high level strategy, seeing where the organization is going is a really valuable thing to have that started from just getting to know each other and to define like what we do, what they do and come together on.

00:43:16:13 - 00:43:44:12
Joshua Charles
It would be really great if we had regular conversations, the things that we're doing in case there are any synergies and things like that. And we've been having those meeting monthly meetings for three and a half years now. So it's been going really well. Same thing with the IT department. That's not that doesn't really have much to do with students at all, but it is to me, I still find it really valuable to have the IT partner be a very trusted partner with communication marketing, get in the work that they that they do.

00:43:44:19 - 00:44:10:23
Joshua Charles
And then of course, it's equally as important to take the same approach again with all of the actually current student facing departments, whether that's career management, whether that's student services, whatever the case may be. Just start by getting to know folks, what do they do they like outside of work, how does their team work? And then once those conversations are going, it's so much easier to then be able to come up with some sort of agreement.

00:44:10:23 - 00:44:36:23
Joshua Charles
It doesn't have to be intensive. Could be once a year as long as you're able to show up and care and to take notice of what they do. I think people appreciate being seen. That is a very valuable thing to to folks. And that has been a really easy gateway for me because I genuinely do care about what they do and getting to know who they are.

00:44:36:23 - 00:44:38:16
Joshua Charles
And that makes it easier to have those conversations.

00:44:39:12 - 00:44:59:13
John Azoni
Yeah, definitely. I have really been investing in relationships on LinkedIn lately and I find that like everyone is very like when you reach when you make a new connection with someone, the guard is so thick up that you're going to sell them something. And I'm like, I just genuinely want to like I like I don't want to just like LinkedIn know, you're like, I will be great.

00:44:59:13 - 00:45:38:10
John Azoni
If we were actually like, you know, friends are can help each other out. And then I found that the ones that are receptive to that at that, that sense like the genuine desire to know what they do and instead of push what I do, those have been some of the most rich relationships that have really snowballed into like really cool collaborations, you know, with with I'm working with some folks from Moody College of Communication on a proposal for a presentation together I just got because it's just kind of randomly like said, Hey, I want to know what you do.

00:45:38:11 - 00:46:06:06
John Azoni
You know, I want to know more about you and, and yeah, so that's that's good. That's good. That's good way to sort of bridge gaps without, you know, and like, let that guard come down a little bit. So, you know, looking ahead, you know, what, what excites you most about, you know, kind of the future of marketing and recruitment and, you know, where do you see some opportunities for for the growth and innovation for for Rutgers and other schools?

00:46:07:09 - 00:46:39:12
Joshua Charles
Well, you know, I think one thing that is really valuable for not just mark Marcum, folks, i.t. Student services, advancement, whoever is just continuing to have genuine interest and connections with folks outside of their institution, both at other colleges and universities as well as on agency sites as well as I'm just folks who are just in higher ed like yourself, like being able to have those connections to learn from each other.

00:46:40:04 - 00:47:03:09
Joshua Charles
That is a very, very, really, really valuable experience that helps make us better back in our own institutions by bringing in different experiences for in different situations that different schools are in. So I'm really excited to continue to see the hiring community on LinkedIn and higher ed Web, of course, and in other areas continue learn from each other.

00:47:04:01 - 00:47:28:23
Joshua Charles
In addition to that, just the industry as a whole certainly is a hot topic right now, and I do think it's important to at least follow it. Certainly, I think it's valuable to just for us to keep in mind, don't lose sight of the student experience like we you know, you want to always have have an understanding of what problem we're actually trying to solve.

00:47:28:23 - 00:48:08:20
Joshua Charles
But regardless of whether it's the hot new thing or not, But I do think it's it's it's it's valuable to at least be paying attention to where AI is going, how it's being utilized in higher ed marketing, specifically for things like that. So it should be an interesting year in that regard. Then I would say the third and final category is just if we think even broader than that, outside of higher ed and just thinking about higher its place in society, given conversations around the value of a degree, the value of higher education, higher being under attack in certain instances, I think we have to continue to be mindful of how we tell stories about

00:48:09:03 - 00:48:30:05
Joshua Charles
how higher education is transformative in the lives of all sorts of different people in and around the United States and beyond. Just starting from where we are in our own backyard. How is Rutgers Business School supporting that? The Newark, New Jersey community, for example, or New Brunswick or just north of New Jersey or New Jersey as a whole?

00:48:30:05 - 00:48:56:17
Joshua Charles
Just talking about how we're supporting our community, We're supporting students and helping change their lives, both domestically and international students. I do think that is going to be a very interesting, potentially challenging conversation over the next many, many years. So I'm curious to see how it goes. But trying to be optimistic about how we can influence positively the narrative around that topic.

00:48:57:10 - 00:49:12:15
John Azoni
Yeah, awesome I love it. This has been an awesome conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. When where can people connect with you at more? You know, let us know where we can connect with high ed web at Sure.

00:49:12:15 - 00:49:43:05
Joshua Charles
So anyone should be able to easily find me on LinkedIn. Just search Joshua Charles and I think for for high level is this place hired what that org of course we have our own slack and as well as the hired web annual conference September in Albuquerque this particular year as well as many other events throughout the year. So again, LinkedIn AECOM for Joshua Charles for for myself and then hired what that work for hired with Awesome.

00:49:43:12 - 00:49:45:03
John Azoni
Well thanks so much Josh thanks for being here.

00:49:45:16 - 00:49:46:04
Joshua Charles
Yeah thank you.