Higher Ed Storytelling University

00:00:00:04 - 00:00:24:02
John Azoni
My guest today is Suzanne Brinker. Suzanne is a higher education strategist, marketer, author and podcast host. She is the co-founder and CEO of Give Higher Education, a Boston based woman, owned full service marketing agency for colleges and universities. Suzanne is the author of Pass Fail the Urgent Need for Strategic Leadership in Higher Education, which will be published in 2024.

00:00:24:02 - 00:00:46:05
John Azoni
And she also hosts the Higher Ed Leaders podcast. Suzanne and her collaborative team specialize in helping colleges and universities differentiate themselves through market aligned brands and programs rooted in market research, strategic planning and a content first approach to authentic marketing that builds trust and engages prospects at every stage of the final. Suzanne, welcome to the show. It's great to have you.

00:00:46:20 - 00:00:49:05
Suzan Brinker
It is so great to be here. Thank you for having me, John.

00:00:50:01 - 00:01:09:08
John Azoni
So I'm a recent fan of yours, and I actually talked about one of your posts in my in my recent newsletter. You know, like most things on LinkedIn, I don't know how I came to follow is something must have popped up in my in my newsfeed. But I get your stuff all the time and it's always just very insightful.

00:01:09:14 - 00:01:27:14
John Azoni
So for people listening, if you, you know, have a vested interest in messaging branding, content creation, Suzanne is a really great follow on on LinkedIn. So, yeah. So tell me, like, how long have you been consistent on LinkedIn? How is that going for you?

00:01:28:13 - 00:01:38:06
Suzan Brinker
I just started really a year ago trying to do daily posts and it's been really great because I think that algorithm eventually is like, okay, she really means that she's.

00:01:38:06 - 00:01:40:20
Suzan Brinker
Here to stay.

00:01:41:04 - 00:02:00:05
Suzan Brinker
So I partnered with a company to just do that snackable videos and content, and now actually we're taking that in-house. So I have a team of ten, and so far it's really been me yammering on on LinkedIn about all the things that I believe, you know, should be front and center on a higher at mind or a higher at strategists mind.

00:02:00:10 - 00:02:17:12
Suzan Brinker
And I've gotten some great results from it. You know, whether it's people who reach out about potentially working with us on the client side or people who potentially want to work with us as contractor, as our full time employees podcast invitations. So it's been good. So some of the people on my team want to kind of follow suit.

00:02:17:12 - 00:02:42:02
Suzan Brinker
And so we're doing it in-house now. And so it's just us, you know, doing our own content planning, video editing and we'll see. I'm really excited about it. We call it our content engine. It's a keystroke strategy for the year, but it's fun. You know, you connect with people that you otherwise wouldn't have connected with. And then when you go to a conference like AMA or we go to IKEA and things like that, you just feel a little bit less like an outsider.

00:02:42:03 - 00:02:52:21
Suzan Brinker
You know, I always yeah, first couple of times I attended industry events is like, this feels really clicky. I don't belong here yet. It's starting to feel a little bit like I belong there a little bit more.

00:02:53:09 - 00:03:05:17
John Azoni
Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. And, you know, it's it's tough to be the founder of a business and also be the content creator for the business. So like my whole.

00:03:06:01 - 00:03:10:11
Suzan Brinker
I like it. So sometimes I feel like I neglect other things to make content. I don't know.

00:03:10:18 - 00:03:35:10
John Azoni
Yes, I have done that too. Like, I get really carried away with making content and like writing the newsletter and all this stuff. And I just keep adding things like, you know, to, to my plate content wise. And then eventually I had to go, okay, Mondays are my content creation days. Tuesday through Thursday, I'm just shipping projects like, you know, delivering videos, moving projects along.

00:03:35:10 - 00:03:40:17
John Azoni
And then Friday we can go back to content or we can do like more fun stuff. Like if I want to learn some more.

00:03:41:03 - 00:03:42:14
Suzan Brinker
I want to be that smart and.

00:03:43:01 - 00:03:43:07
Suzan Brinker
Think.

00:03:45:14 - 00:04:08:13
John Azoni
It doesn't always work out like that. Like, you know, my kids are out, you know, obviously they're out for the summer. They're in summer camp. That only goes till 2:00. And then, you know, almost every day there's some surprise like, oh, you know, so-and-so's not feeling good. So you got to go pick them up. Or like today my wife was supposed to pick them up from from camp and then and then I got the job, so.

00:04:09:01 - 00:04:11:07
John Azoni
So it's like it's always someone just thrown.

00:04:11:07 - 00:04:18:08
Suzan Brinker
At my in-laws house for the month because we have three kids, and it just really helps to have four adults.

00:04:18:15 - 00:04:19:02
Suzan Brinker
Yes.

00:04:19:09 - 00:04:22:14
Suzan Brinker
Kids versus two. So I guess it is real.

00:04:22:20 - 00:04:41:09
John Azoni
That's the reason to. I you know, this whole the digital nomad life I think is so idealistic and I love it. And I would love to just pick up and go, But I'm like, we have three sets of grandparents within a 15 mile radius. So I'm like, we can't leave that kind of support.

00:04:42:15 - 00:05:00:18
Suzan Brinker
We we don't have that. So we have to travel to them. No one. Yeah, we'll have fun. I mean, that's part of it is I think I got into higher ed after I wanted to be a journalist. And so then I spent a lot of time in the marketing space and in a lot of meetings and doing though.

00:05:00:18 - 00:05:09:12
Suzan Brinker
And so it feels really good to have a little bit of that journalism, that content creation, that writing back in my life now as well. So that's that's a really nice.

00:05:10:09 - 00:05:10:20
Suzan Brinker
You know.

00:05:11:01 - 00:05:12:10
Suzan Brinker
Enjoying the career right now.

00:05:12:16 - 00:05:38:15
John Azoni
Absolutely. So we are going to talk today about differentiating institutional programs and sort of avoiding, as you call it, the sea of sameness, which I love. Like that's like one of my content pillars is like how to not be boring, you know, and how to not like make well in the video side, how to not make like videos that just look like it could be any college swapped in there.

00:05:39:06 - 00:05:47:15
John Azoni
So I'm really excited to to jump into that. I want to kick us off with a question we ask every guest, which is tell me something people would be surprised to know about you.

00:05:48:06 - 00:06:07:16
Suzan Brinker
Mm hmm. I'm really into true crime. I don't know if that's surprising. Maybe most people are, but, like, I'm really into it. Like, if there is something that happens on a local level, like, I want to go and see the place and I want to really I get, like, really obsessive about all the details. I become like an encyclopedia of the case and I will this.

00:06:08:00 - 00:06:11:15
Suzan Brinker
I have shut down dinner conversations with clients after, you.

00:06:11:15 - 00:06:14:18
Suzan Brinker
Know, just going on and on.

00:06:14:18 - 00:06:17:20
Suzan Brinker
So that's a little bit of an off brand thing. But, you know.

00:06:18:11 - 00:06:39:02
John Azoni
It's that's great. I love true crime, too. That's like those are the documentaries that fascinate me on LinkedIn. I've I think I've watched most of them and they're just so gripping and it's like and then there's a true crime podcast called Crime Junkie is Do you listen to that? I have, yeah, that one's pretty good, too.

00:06:39:14 - 00:06:56:06
Suzan Brinker
My thing is, I'm not like I don't survey all, you know, like some people are like, Oh, this case and this case in this case and they know everything. I'm more like I attached to one specific case and just become the most knowledgeable person you will ever meet about this. One thing. And it's creepy and weird and so much fun.

00:06:56:14 - 00:07:09:14
John Azoni
Interesting. I wonder what the psychology is behind the obsession with true crime because, you know, it's kind of like a niche thing, but like everyone, it's just like universally gripping and fascinating through.

00:07:09:14 - 00:07:13:05
Suzan Brinker
Depraved nature of human beings. Perhaps.

00:07:13:05 - 00:07:27:14
John Azoni
Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Okay. So you founded a higher ed company. So tell us tell us in your own words, a little bit about that. And I also want to hear about the book you wrote. So tell me about those two things.

00:07:28:01 - 00:07:47:20
Suzan Brinker
Well, Viv is at this point almost five years old, will be five years old in October, by which I mean on October 11th, 2019, my co-founder, Carmen and I decided we were going to start this together. We made a little website and we started trying to get clients. We didn't actually start working with the client until July of 2020, when the pandemic was well underway.

00:07:47:20 - 00:08:09:01
Suzan Brinker
So that was a little bit of an unexpected boost. Actually. Initially, of course, it seemed like a huge, you know, Oh shit, what did I do? Why did I leave my job to start this thing? And now there's this global pandemic. But I think ultimately it actually helped us because everybody was at home and it just became a lot easier to work at scale with different institutions all over, not just locally.

00:08:10:15 - 00:08:35:08
Suzan Brinker
But yeah, I sounded it because I had been in higher ed marketing at that point for about seven years. I was at Penn State World Campus for five and a half left there as director of marketing with a heavy focus on online and international marketing for four degree programs, and then went to Northeastern, where I also focused on as director of marketing on graduate and online programs for the most part.

00:08:35:08 - 00:08:57:03
Suzan Brinker
So I had that subject matter expertise and I really loved Higher Ed. But I at this point was pregnant with my second daughter. I now have three kids and I had this kind of entrepreneurial itch and I had moved to the Boston area and I thought, hmm, perhaps I could be freer and, you know, be freed from these politics that happen.

00:08:57:03 - 00:09:15:22
Suzan Brinker
And like the ten meetings where I don't know when to go to the bathroom or eat food and or just the volatility of a large kind of, you know, complex university environment, I don't know. I just always had this entrepreneurial thing where I was like, maybe I could see what I could do by myself or with a small team of rebels or something like that.

00:09:15:22 - 00:09:37:00
Suzan Brinker
So I think my daughter Nora, who's my second, she was kind of the impetus where the cost benefit analysis just didn't add up anymore, where I was like, I'm commuting a lot, I'm spending a ton of money on daycare and the job is really stressful and things are changing all the time. And so I think without her it probably would have been too scary and I wouldn't have made the move.

00:09:37:06 - 00:10:10:06
Suzan Brinker
But I did because of her and I'm so grateful to her actually for that because it's been awesome. And of course it's also been hard, but like good, hard. It's just been really fun to see what hard work can accumulate to over the course of several years. And now we have a team of ten full time. We have clients in the Boston area where I live and the company is technically headquartered headquartered, but we have employees across different states in the U.S. We work with institutions nationally as well as some international across Europe and Asia.

00:10:10:17 - 00:10:33:14
Suzan Brinker
So it's been a really great journey. And as part of that, I think we've enjoyed figuring out what makes us a little different. You know, as an agency, why are we worthy of a look when institutions are looking for a partner? And that's also what we're helping our partner institutions figure out to your point, right? Standards. Yeah, same.

00:10:33:15 - 00:10:34:03
Suzan Brinker
That's yeah.

00:10:34:18 - 00:10:50:11
John Azoni
Yeah. It's nice when you have to you sort of advise, but then you're, you're sort of advising from a place of like you're like building in public, you know, like you're, you're sort of applying this stuff and going, you know, this worked. And so maybe, you know, that would work for, you know, my higher ed folks, you know.

00:10:50:17 - 00:10:59:04
John Azoni
So, yeah, it's a it's an interesting position to be in. And then, you know, amidst all of that, you wrote a book. So tell me tell me about the book.

00:10:59:11 - 00:11:18:12
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, the book is called Pass Fail The Urgent Need for Strategic Leadership in Higher Education. And part of that is because I always feel like you can have the best strategy and you can even have the best team and the best implementation plan. But if you don't have solid leadership and a good culture, it's just not going to amount to much.

00:11:18:12 - 00:11:44:22
Suzan Brinker
And to many of our colleges and universities are falling down on that point. I mean, we have really short ten years presidents at this point. I think it's an average tenure of five years VP's I think often leave and go to other institutions. So there is that volatile environment and just a lot of starting and stopping. And so I wanted to look at, you know, as a higher ed marketer, I always love the opportunity to be at the table when it comes to market research or program strategy.

00:11:44:22 - 00:12:05:04
Suzan Brinker
Anything that comes before us being asked to market something that maybe isn't market aligned. And so I see a lot of the time where that leadership gap is really kind of detrimental to the success of the institution. And I really want us to look at that. So the book is based on interviews with presidents and VP's at a variety of different institutions.

00:12:05:04 - 00:12:31:22
Suzan Brinker
It's also rooted in my own sort of anecdotes from the various institutions that I've worked with. Last year I was fractional CMO at a small liberal arts college called Assumption University, a Catholic liberal arts institution in Worcester, Massachusetts. I was directly on a cabinet and saw a lot that became kind of fodder for the book and therefore in sections, the first one is on strategy, the second one is on the brand, the third one on enrollment and the fourth one on culture.

00:12:32:06 - 00:12:58:18
Suzan Brinker
And so it really looks at how would we have to think about this? How could we work more cross-functionally, how do we make sound strategies? How do we think about reaching new audiences sitting in the same pot everybody wants to switch from, of course, you know, and just gives, I think, a lot of raw stories based on my experience and the one one of the people I interviewed, but also gives actionable insights that people can take into their work and implement right away.

00:12:59:09 - 00:13:00:20
John Azoni
I love that. So when is that coming out?

00:13:01:20 - 00:13:23:04
Suzan Brinker
So it's coming out in September of 2024. I should have the print copies in hand, you know, early September. And then the book actually might list on Amazon a little bit before that. So if you follow me on LinkedIn, you'll know and I'm really excited to get the print copy. So I was lucky to have a good amount of people who preordered the book.

00:13:23:04 - 00:13:28:13
Suzan Brinker
So I get to write little notes into the book and send it to them and I'm so excited for that.

00:13:28:20 - 00:13:52:23
John Azoni
Cool. That's so fun. I love that. I'm looking forward to reading that because that all sounds really interesting, you know? So we're talking about program differentiation and enrollment marketing. So let's just jump in. You got several points here that I'm excited to hear about, but talk to us about differentiation in general. Like why is it important? How should schools be thinking about differentiation?

00:13:52:23 - 00:14:11:10
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, I mean, I think we all love the store. If you think about it, from a blue ocean or red ocean perspective, blue ocean being there isn't a lot of competition. You've kind of invented a new category and red ocean as there is a ton of competition and you're trying to stand out from it. We all love the blue ocean stories.

00:14:11:10 - 00:14:40:07
Suzan Brinker
I think in higher ed, I think about like an elan that has actually the amber at the president who was there for 20 years. One of the people I interviewed on my podcast and in my book. And it's just so fascinating because they really reinvented themselves from this Christian affiliated college that was really small to now a multi denominational or multi-faith, I should say, right on campus that has tripled their enrollment and is a top business school.

00:14:40:08 - 00:14:51:16
Suzan Brinker
It's incredible. And you know, our northeastern that has completely reinvented itself from this like nonselective commuter school to a school that is basically as hard to get into as it's like Harvard.

00:14:51:16 - 00:14:52:01
Suzan Brinker
Wow.

00:14:53:06 - 00:15:14:02
Suzan Brinker
So I think a lot of people think of them when they hear the word differentiation and how do we do that? But I do think that for many schools, it would be better to think about it more from a red ocean perspective where it's like, how do we actually have a good student experience? How do we have programs that our students are looking for that they're not finding here?

00:15:14:02 - 00:15:34:11
Suzan Brinker
And why? Why are they going to competitors? How can we be really excellent at teaching? How can we be really excellent at having students find meaning in their lives and telling those stories that as a marketer, once you get those real stories, you can you can do a lot with it and just really figuring out how to manage the funnel well.

00:15:34:23 - 00:15:52:22
Suzan Brinker
So when I think of differentiation, sometimes it's more like, you know, you're ordering Mexican food and ultimately everything has like a taco, some lettuce, some meat and some cheese. And it's a matter of like repackaging it in a way that people still find new value in it. And I feel like that's really more realistic for a lot of these schools.

00:15:52:22 - 00:16:14:20
Suzan Brinker
And so really just being being focused on, okay, so what is our brand? What if it's a large university and you have multiple colleges? What is the brand of the College of Engineering versus the College of Computer Science versus the College of Liberal Arts? And then for each program, what is the program differentiation and how do they all tie together?

00:16:14:20 - 00:16:38:05
Suzan Brinker
I think that's a really interesting puzzle, and you could get distracted from that puzzle if you're constantly obsessed with like the bright and shiny object that's going to make your school the next Elon You know what I'm saying? So I think a lot of teams, it might seem boring to always have to kind of put these puzzles together, but it's really fun when the team jams together and there are some really great tools that you can employ in that pursuit.

00:16:38:23 - 00:16:45:15
John Azoni
Yeah, I love the blue ocean red ocean visual. Have you read that Blue Ocean Strategy book?

00:16:46:04 - 00:17:09:17
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, I have. It's been a minute and there are a couple of people right now that I follow on LinkedIn who are not actually higher ed people who talk about the Red Ocean being the better place for many people to be in. And I tend to agree with that right now. That's just the prospective in higher ed because the bright and shiny object syndrome I think is real is a real problem on higher ed boards and higher ed cabinets.

00:17:09:17 - 00:17:17:12
Suzan Brinker
And it would behoove us to to focus a little bit more on getting the basics right and excelling in those and telling those stories. Well.

00:17:17:20 - 00:17:36:04
John Azoni
I like that. And I think about that in terms of this part. Sometimes I go off on these tangents about thinking about this podcast work because I'll listen to some other podcast that's like, you know, your content engine has to be like, it has to be like so different. It has to be like, you know, like just like so memorable and stuff like that.

00:17:36:04 - 00:17:43:22
John Azoni
And I'm like, Yeah, that sounds great. Like how, how would I like, reinvent this podcast? And then I always come back to like, I don't know, like I kind of like what we're doing.

00:17:43:23 - 00:17:45:13
Suzan Brinker
Like, I think.

00:17:45:13 - 00:18:02:23
Suzan Brinker
It's really when I think about my own agency right? I started it because the decision to leave wasn't that I had this brilliant business strategy where I was like, I'm going to build an agency that has never existed before. I just thought, this is a way to pay my bills until maybe I get another job. I mean, that's the mindset I started with.

00:18:03:08 - 00:18:06:19
Suzan Brinker
And maybe that wasn't the most strategic like Harvard Business.

00:18:06:19 - 00:18:08:10
Suzan Brinker
School, right? Growth.

00:18:08:18 - 00:18:28:15
Suzan Brinker
But it worked for me because ultimately I just worked really hard and got a little bit better every day and just was able to compete with some agencies that have been around for a really long time. And the differentiators that we bring are really they're not earth shattering, you know, it's like we care. We are custom, we have a custom mindset.

00:18:28:15 - 00:18:55:07
Suzan Brinker
We really dig deep into your data. We are transparent with the data that we are with the targeting information and your spend information. And we handle your media campaigns. We're not afraid to also train your team and help kind of hand over the keys to the kingdom instead of just keeping everything go. So like small differentiators. But for a savvy shopper of agency services, those are actually really aligned with the pain points that they're looking to resolve with their current partner.

00:18:55:15 - 00:19:15:03
Suzan Brinker
And I think university, you can think about it in the same way like a student might be like, does this university have really great mentors? Do they have access to mentors that I could use or I could connect with to potentially get a leg up in this industry? Or, you know, do they have healthy food at the cafeteria?

00:19:15:03 - 00:19:43:19
Suzan Brinker
You know, really understand saying, why are students going to the 5 to 7 competitors? You're losing students, too, and then resolving those pain points from a student experience and academic experience perspective, I think is a really good investment of your time when it comes to differentiation. But then, of course, also telling those stories in the right place at the right time, like throughout the marketing funnel, figuring out when is it the most important timing to tell someone that we do this differently?

00:19:44:05 - 00:20:15:00
John Azoni
Yeah, I love that. And I think I think when we think differentiation, we always think, yeah, what is this blue ocean idea that no one's ever thought of? And it's sort of like, well, how many different ways can you spin the college experience, right? You know, before it stops becoming college, you know? So I love, I think it's refreshing to hear someone say like, hey, just like, lean into that, you know, like you're a college, you know, and just do the basics well and figure out how to communicate that.

00:20:15:00 - 00:20:48:04
John Azoni
And one thing I like about your website, the higher education website, when I was just kind of perusing it this morning, I was like, at a glance, You're not doing like it's not like you. You guys are doing some dramatically like crazy, different brand brand agency kind of style thing. But I was like, this website stands out from all these other higher ed branding marketing messaging agencies that I've seen it just in the way that you communicate it so clearly.

00:20:48:04 - 00:21:03:23
John Azoni
And like I felt like if I were a school, I would feel like so like this person gets it, like it just felt like you have a plan. This is how you want to take me from A to Z. I don't know. I don't really articulate that well, but I just have got.

00:21:04:01 - 00:21:04:21
Suzan Brinker
To share.

00:21:04:21 - 00:21:21:22
Suzan Brinker
That with the team. They'll be really excited. We are also going through like a kind of brand exercise right now because now that we're five years old, I think the team that we have wants to take ownership of the brand a little bit. But I love that you think that we're being clear and that the expertise shines through for sure.

00:21:22:06 - 00:21:23:06
Suzan Brinker
That's very kind.

00:21:23:14 - 00:21:49:01
John Azoni
Yeah. And I think that's I think that's a lot of times where where colleges struggle is it's just like you go on to a landing page about the College of Education or whatever. And it's I went on write someone's page recently and I'm like, what is this? It was it was like a novel of text and just visually, like, overwhelming to where I was like, I don't even care what you look like.

00:21:49:09 - 00:22:10:21
Suzan Brinker
The differentiation thing doesn't always have to be sexy because if you say something that's incredibly differentiating and a, there is no market for it, or B you say it in such like an unappealing way that nobody's actually going to stick with it and read it and absorb it, then it's useless that you have something really different to say.

00:22:10:21 - 00:22:34:20
Suzan Brinker
So I think differentiation is is a bit more complex and ultimately it's just about being able to hold the attention of your prospects for longer and to have them attached to something, whether it's a faculty member or a an extracurricular activity that they're looking for or just a student experience. And yeah, that's I think what a lot of our work is focused.

00:22:35:09 - 00:22:40:08
John Azoni
Cool. I love the kid and the ambiance in the background. It's such a great right.

00:22:40:08 - 00:22:43:09
Suzan Brinker
You've got a podcast like, What are you doing?

00:22:44:21 - 00:22:54:04
John Azoni
I'm like, Yeah, that's my house. If I, if I like my kids were around, they'd be like, my daughter would be coming in, be like, Hurry up, Dad, we're supposed to play Uno.

00:22:54:11 - 00:22:58:09
Suzan Brinker
Like, Yeah.

00:22:59:03 - 00:23:16:02
John Azoni
So anyway, I love it. So you you're mentioning like, why are students or why are prospective students leaving to go to other, you know, schools and digging into that? Like what kind of market research should colleges and universities be doing? How should that yeah out.

00:23:16:16 - 00:23:39:14
Suzan Brinker
Yeah that's the other thing I think a lot of schools spend like hundreds of thousands of dollars on market research that ultimate need tells them for the most part what they already know. And then the report ends up sitting on the shelf and isn't actionable. And they've hired an external agency for it and actually in the process learned nothing.

00:23:40:07 - 00:24:18:01
Suzan Brinker
So I'm a proponent of making market research part of your everyday work and really, if you're going to partner with external partners to help you do that, you should find an agency that is willing to help your team learn how to do research on a daily basis. At Assumption, I had a lot of fun building what I called an internal market research incubator because we had sent out an RFP, we had gotten all these responses from the big research firms to do this graduate program differentiation study, and I read them all and I was like, not really impressed that I didn't see the ROI on some spend.

00:24:18:19 - 00:24:45:02
Suzan Brinker
So what we did instead, and this was a little scrappy, we kind of assembled a team of internal collaborators. We found some business school faculty that were willing to partner with us as well, that had some experience with labor market research or whatever it was. We paid them a small stipend and then we also worked with the business school faculty to find some MBA students that were interested in working kind of for a stipend with us on this incubator.

00:24:45:02 - 00:25:24:08
Suzan Brinker
So everything that we did immediately, you know, the division was always, let's make this more scalable, let's operationalize this. And the things that we did concretely in terms of the market research approaches were simple. You know, we did a SWOT analysis, which is kind of fun. It you can learn on YouTube how to do it. The key is always to just not leave it at just like strengths, opportunities, weaknesses, threats, but to start combining them creatively and figuring out opportunities, but then pairing that with a competitor analysis so you can understand what are the gaps in the competition that we could possibly fill doing a student demand analysis, both in terms of why our students

00:25:24:09 - 00:25:52:20
Suzan Brinker
not coming here and going to our competitors, which hopefully we know why. Right? We're hopefully start them and talking to them directly, but also broadly on a national or international scale, what our students are looking for. And you can do that through various avenues, focus groups and surveys being one of them. But if you don't have time or budget for that, there are other ways to, you know, best research and publications that already exist and sort of overlaying that with your own institutional data.

00:25:52:20 - 00:26:17:12
Suzan Brinker
And then we did a labor market assessment and we were like, okay, in this region where we're offering graduate degrees, what are employers looking for and what are the jobs that are growing and what is our competition not offering yet? And so between those kind of simple steps, we were then able to present to the board and say, here are the opportunities, these are the programs we need to sunset, these are the programs we need to hold so that we, of course, did a financial analysis as well.

00:26:17:23 - 00:26:39:01
Suzan Brinker
And here is here are the programs that we think we need to build. And in some cases it might be a certificate, in some cases it might be a program. And the board was super pleased because, A, this was super actionable for the institution, but B, we can do this again next semester because now we have the people who know how to do it in our on our staff, on our campus.

00:26:39:09 - 00:26:55:12
Suzan Brinker
So that was really fun. And as a marketer, it was just so gratifying to be able to be involved in that work and help lead it from the very beginning. Because then by the time it comes time to market these programs, I'm bought in like, why are we off this? We know there is a market, we know what these people are looking for.

00:26:55:12 - 00:27:09:09
Suzan Brinker
We can make a messaging framework and a content strategy that really hits their psychographics. So yeah, I think market research is absolutely critical, but sometimes we need to think about it differently in terms of how do we operationalize it on our own campus.

00:27:10:01 - 00:27:26:01
John Azoni
Yeah, I love that you empower teams to eventually take the reins and kind of do this themselves. I think, you know, contrary to like the pharmaceutical industry or something like that, you're creating as a system that keeps people.

00:27:26:22 - 00:27:27:02
Suzan Brinker
Well.

00:27:27:08 - 00:27:48:18
Suzan Brinker
I mean, not to belabor this point too much, but I know there are a lot of higher ed marketing agency is are research firms who specifically have business models that don't empower the teams that they work with because then they're kind of just forced to keep renewing the contract. And I don't know, I mean, maybe I'm naive. We haven't done it that way.

00:27:48:19 - 00:28:02:09
Suzan Brinker
I feel like if we do good work, they'll keep us there. We've worked ourselves out of a job. There will be another job to do. Maybe that's a overly optimistic perspective, but so far it's worked out cool.

00:28:02:09 - 00:28:15:13
John Azoni
I love that. That's really refreshing. So then also, you know, you talk a lot about creating differentiation in in messaging and and like creative assets and things like that. So. So tell us about that. How should we be thinking about that?

00:28:17:01 - 00:28:38:11
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, sometimes when I give presentations on this, I start with a video about Recess University, which was this kind of satirical ad that Hershey made about their peanut butter cups. And it looks like, you know, there is this place called Reese's University and it ends with the slogan, you know, are you are you? And then have these peanut butter cups as a trophy anyway, it's really funny.

00:28:38:19 - 00:29:07:19
Suzan Brinker
And the point that it makes is that all higher ed ads look the same and that you could literally swap out the product from something educational and academic to peanut butter cups and say the same things. And it still kind of works. And so when you think about ad creative or just assets that you would put together in order to entice students to come to Europe to to inquire, apply, deposit, whatever it is.

00:29:07:19 - 00:29:32:07
Suzan Brinker
A, we need to make sure that the creative looks different than the competition's. Mm hmm. There are some concrete principles that we use for like, let's use second person. Let's use you instead of we. Let's not talk about our lawn, our buildings, our faculty, our advisors. Let's talk about you. Like, what do you want from this experience? And we call it a psychographic hook.

00:29:32:18 - 00:30:00:11
Suzan Brinker
So you have something that ultimately addresses what's in somebody is heart. You know what somebody really wants to to make progress on. The second principle is to use authentic ad authentic images, so not stock photography. And really that also psychographic style of photography that's like fly on the wall immersive where you see someone's emotion and not a building or a lawn.

00:30:00:22 - 00:30:32:01
Suzan Brinker
Right. And then just making sure that there is something outcome based or some proof points, whether that's on the creative, which sometimes you don't have the opportunity to really put it on the creative because digital platforms want you to keep the creative clean. The algorithm actually prioritizes your ad if it's too crammed with text, but you have some space above the image or below to make your case and having some sort of outcome proof point, you know, And sometimes you can do that through a testimonial or a student story.

00:30:32:14 - 00:31:02:22
Suzan Brinker
And then lastly, just making sure that the brand is recognizable and consistent so that people can associate you as they kind of see your stuff throughout their journey, that they know that it's from your institution. But more broadly, too, I think what we're really trying to push institutions to do is moving away from that really salesy, you know, almost like corporate look and feel of an ad and really rooting it in, in stories.

00:31:02:22 - 00:31:33:17
Suzan Brinker
And by stories, I don't necessarily mean testimonials like I would recommend X, Y, Z University to anyone. I now have a job with a six figure salary, but rather truly vulnerable and raw stories about someone who maybe was at risk at not persisting throughout their first year. And the reason they did is because they had an amazing faculty member who took them under their wing or someone who was an athlete and suffered an injury and figured out how to turn it around on campus.

00:31:33:17 - 00:31:58:12
Suzan Brinker
Somebody who didn't think they could afford college and they came there and now they're thriving and actually putting those stories in an act, you know, so that that somebody is enticed to click through, moving away from that really salesy, like I said, inauthentic, stale, beat you over the head with a type of approach to this truly authentic, engaging, trust building approach.

00:31:59:05 - 00:32:19:17
John Azoni
I love that. Yeah. Because I think, you know, in the student testimonial world, there's there's such a difference between like a typical like infomercial testimonial is exactly what you said. It's like five stars is great. I wanted to come here for this reason. So I came here and I did the thing and now I'm doing the thing out in the real world.

00:32:19:17 - 00:32:49:18
John Azoni
You know, it's like that's technically a story, but just not you know, people aren't going to be, like, lining up at the box office, you know? Yeah, to see that. But but you know what I always look for as a storyteller in stories is like the big thing is, is there some sort of personal threat or what I would call like a side door story, you know, like something else that we can ride that river and eventually pass through the brand, you know?

00:32:51:05 - 00:33:13:13
John Azoni
And there's nothing inherently wrong, I think, with like a traditional testimonial, because I think, you know, it's like saying, well, are Google reviews bad? You know, like, I mean, sometimes it's helpful to see, like point blank, did someone like it? Did they get the value out of it? You know, but there's a difference between like a Google review and, you know, a more immersive story.

00:33:13:13 - 00:33:23:21
John Azoni
So. So yeah, I love that. Yeah. And getting away from getting away from the salesy stuff or like your journey starts here or you belong here.

00:33:24:17 - 00:33:24:21
Suzan Brinker
And.

00:33:24:22 - 00:33:26:01
Suzan Brinker
Your journey starts here. You.

00:33:27:02 - 00:33:28:04
Suzan Brinker
To your point about.

00:33:28:07 - 00:33:50:22
Suzan Brinker
Google reviews aren't bad. Similarly, of course, you know, we need application reminders or deposit reminders. And instead of just sending a reminder that's like apply today, apply now apply by midnight, your last chance is now. We can pair those asks too, with something that adds value to someone's life, whether it's a story or a content asset or some meaningful outreach.

00:33:50:22 - 00:34:04:05
Suzan Brinker
And I think that's where we have a lot of room for improvement in higher ed, where in other industries that personalized, you know, dynamic sort of nurture journey has been we're a little behind. Yeah.

00:34:04:17 - 00:34:14:10
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah definitely. I'm a huge proponent of in content marketing no matter what you're saying like have it add value. I mean it's, it's.

00:34:14:23 - 00:34:15:16
Suzan Brinker
It builds trust.

00:34:16:11 - 00:34:38:02
John Azoni
Yeah. Like in some way entertainment value, some sort of insight, thought, leadership value, you know, find a way to bring something else to the table other than to ask. And I think that's just like a really Yeah. Powerful thought that I think more colleges need to need to be aware of, you know, especially if you hang out on LinkedIn enough.

00:34:39:01 - 00:34:55:06
John Azoni
It's amazing to me how many, like marketing leaders are just terrible at content marketing because it's like all they post is like me, me, me. I got this certification, I'm hiring, come work on my team owns.

00:34:55:08 - 00:35:06:14
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, I'm supposed to share that. Yeah, it's very cringe as Gen-Z says. No, I agree And it's I think that shows in the materials that universities are putting out.

00:35:07:00 - 00:35:12:21
John Azoni
Yeah. So and then talk about audience targeting.

00:35:13:23 - 00:35:42:22
Suzan Brinker
Oh well I guess because I think this is this is part of my whole soapbox on differentiation and doesn't mean you always have to, you know, think about how to do things differently than everyone. I think there are a lot of teams who so when they put together a digital marketing initiative, they see that maybe something hasn't worked before and they kind of want to throw it all out and build something from scratch without really thinking about what's already working, even though maybe the end result isn't where you want it.

00:35:43:10 - 00:36:20:10
Suzan Brinker
So I think a lot of teams missed a really important step of really analyzing the enrollment data or the need and applicant data for geographic demographic and psychographic markers that we could then build on. I would never recommend that a school just kind of goes on Google keyword planner and on, you know, a planning tool that says, oh, you know, the demand for this keyword is the highest here in India, so that we're going to spend all of our money there because just because the demand for keyword is high doesn't mean that there is an ability to pay or likelihood to enroll in that geography.

00:36:20:10 - 00:36:47:04
Suzan Brinker
Right. So the way that we've helped a lot of schools really dramatically improve their results is instead of looking at sort of lead volume, we look at what's showing up in the enrollment data. Where are people coming from? How old are they? Are they male, female? What are their gender markers? What have they studied previously? If it's a graduate program, what are their job titles?

00:36:47:04 - 00:37:11:16
Suzan Brinker
If it's a graduate program and psychographics, I think show up a little bit. Lesson and enrollment data, you know, like what is someone looking to achieve? What are they looking for? It's a graduate program, a career pivot, or to get promoted or to just kind of advance in their current field? Or is it's an undergraduate program sort of what is someone's key priority when they're selecting an institution.

00:37:11:16 - 00:37:41:23
Suzan Brinker
But we can find that out by talking to admissions counselors and looking at their data. So kind of matching those up. And then we recommend that 80% of the money that you're spending on your marketing should go towards those segments that are already proven in your enrollment data and that 20% be set aside for testing because you know, your competitors are having a lot of success with this or the industry trend is that or there's a new geography that maybe we haven't tried before that's looking promising.

00:37:42:09 - 00:37:55:11
Suzan Brinker
And again, I think that's just kind of basic stuff, but a lot of teams miss it. Yeah. Or they work with agencies who are only being held accountable for lead volume, which ultimately does very little for your enrollments. That's another issue.

00:37:56:03 - 00:38:05:15
John Azoni
Yeah, that's the thing. It's like you have to you know, it's like what I said about the pharmaceutical companies. Like you have to judge people by their incentives, you know?

00:38:05:15 - 00:38:07:01
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:07:01 - 00:38:20:12
John Azoni
You know, people that are incentivized to to deliver leads are going to deliver leads at all costs, even if they're garbage leads. But yeah, I think it's a good thought.

00:38:20:20 - 00:38:58:06
Suzan Brinker
So it comes down to leadership as well, because in many institutions the reason that agency is get away with saying, well, we got two leads and that's all we are responsible for, is that institutions don't have the the martech in place to be able to follow leads all the way through to application and enrollment. And honestly, for a president or provost to show up and say this really matters, we have to resolve this so we can hold our agency partner more accountable for the results would be a huge game changer because if the president or provost says that, unfortunately it matters a lot more.

00:38:58:17 - 00:39:04:09
Suzan Brinker
Director of enrollment says it sometimes, and that leadership piece is just so critical.

00:39:04:21 - 00:39:20:16
John Azoni
Yeah, super interesting. And then so, you know, when you get into that, a lot of what you talk about is a content first approach. What what does that mean? How how should that be lived out? How should schools be thinking about that?

00:39:21:17 - 00:39:45:02
Suzan Brinker
When we say content first approach or really getting at this issue, that at a lot of institutions, content and paid media are handled in silos. So you have maybe an agency partner and a couple of people who are responsible for a lead generation. And then you have an entirely different team that's responsible for maybe making content, whether it's blog posts, video, ad creative, you know, whatever it is.

00:39:45:02 - 00:40:23:18
Suzan Brinker
And they're not really talking to each other or they're not incentivized to collaborate really effectively. So when we talk about a content first approach, number one, we're talking about breaking down that silo and really seeing the two of them as an integrated function. And then secondly, what I already discussed, right, going away from this really stale, inauthentic, salesy to the more engaging, authentic trust building approach and just making sure that at every step you offer value to someone, whether that's through a faculty toolkit or a faculty video, where the faculty member really talks about their research and inspiring someone, whether it's a template that helps you ask your parent to come to A to to

00:40:23:18 - 00:40:50:22
Suzan Brinker
pay for a pre college program or, you know, for some sort of extracurricular opportunity or your employer to help subsidize your master's degree. There is so much value we can add to someone throughout the journey. And so when we work on engagements with institutions always come from that content first approach where we're saying, Here's who we should target, here's how much we should spend on this segment, what content can we offer them?

00:40:51:06 - 00:41:17:17
Suzan Brinker
A As a lead magnet where it makes sense and B, to continue being top of mind? We also do a lot of things where once we've generated the leads, leads tend to be really qualified on Google, for example, and much more targeted LinkedIn tends to be really expensive. So if we don't have a robust budget where it makes a ton of sense to generate leads, LinkedIn, we'll actually upload the leads that we got from Google to LinkedIn and we'll start nurturing them there.

00:41:18:11 - 00:41:34:09
Suzan Brinker
So things like that, you know, where it's really we're thinking about it as a long game and we're also we understand that especially in the graduate space, it can take six to 18 to 24 months for someone to make a decision. So it's not a one and done thing. It's it's a US effort.

00:41:35:01 - 00:41:36:22
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, we have to get content or.

00:41:37:16 - 00:41:43:10
Suzan Brinker
You know, if all they ever see from us is just these pushy reminders, they're going to tune us out.

00:41:44:09 - 00:42:15:16
John Azoni
Yeah. And with, with the enrollment cycle being that long, the idea of consistency I think comes into play so, so much. As you know, people see one message from me or one ad or something like that. They might be impacted, but you know, in a couple of days they've forgotten about it and they're they're on to other things like you have to you just have to constantly be staying top of mind and where I think like content repurposing is is hugely beneficial to where.

00:42:16:07 - 00:42:17:18
Suzan Brinker
An evergreen content.

00:42:17:18 - 00:42:26:16
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah. If I remember correct when I was on your site, you know, content repurposing was something I saw on there. What, how do you guys.

00:42:27:09 - 00:42:52:19
Suzan Brinker
I mean, will sometimes work with, for example, we have a few clients in the executive education space too. So people, you know, targeting people who are in their jobs and who come to an institution for lifelong learning opportunities. And what we know about those audiences is that often they really attach to specific faculty members at their research and they sort of binged those faculty members.

00:42:53:20 - 00:43:29:05
Suzan Brinker
And ultimately they select courses that are taught by those faculty members. So if we can be really efficient and come in once a year and record video of that faculty member and interview them, we can then turn that content into all kinds of different assets from longform videos for the website to snackable videos on LinkedIn and what other social channels they're using to, like I said, faculty toolkits that can become lead magnets to social media posts to email, nurture videos and touches.

00:43:29:13 - 00:43:38:22
Suzan Brinker
Yeah. So the one day that we spend are the 2 hours that we spend with that faculty member becomes two years worth of content.

00:43:38:22 - 00:44:07:17
John Azoni
Yeah, I always I've been saying lately that, you know, faculty is a college is probably the lowest hanging fruit for for video content. I mean you've got you know I think good video content marketing comes down to just pointing the camera or your phone at something interesting. You know, And oftentimes, like faculty are in classrooms every day saying interesting things or doing cool research outside of the classroom.

00:44:07:17 - 00:44:25:07
John Azoni
Yeah, I don't see enough of the the push to spotlight faculty, you know, in compared to how helpful it would be if they did, you know, because yeah, it's just like one long interview would be so many pieces of content.

00:44:25:12 - 00:44:47:05
Suzan Brinker
I think that's for sure. True, especially on the graduate and professional side, where faculty are such a big factor in the decision. And then even thinking about what do we ask faculty members for? So at an institution that I worked at before, we would have faculty members come in for a video shoot. But ultimately they were just talking about the program and the curriculum and what you get out of the program.

00:44:47:05 - 00:45:16:11
Suzan Brinker
So again, a little bit more of this, like we, we, we mindset and we actually instead focus on faculty members research and thought leadership, because the theory behind that is, one, somebody attaches to that person's personality and expertise. That's your true differentI passion, right? Because no other school has that person teaching for them. You don't have to talk about all of your accolades and rankings and location and amenities anymore.

00:45:16:12 - 00:45:26:02
Suzan Brinker
Like you're the only one who has Professor X. Yeah, so I'm a huge, huge under leveraged opportunity, especially on the graduate and professional side.

00:45:26:02 - 00:45:52:09
John Azoni
Yeah, I mean a core memory of mine like very early in my video directing career, I was working at production company. We started working with a a big university and the first video we did with them, you know, their team was awesome, just total sweethearts. But, but like, they were like, they were like, Yeah, we want to do something different, blah blah.

00:45:52:09 - 00:46:18:11
John Azoni
And so we have all these areas like executive education. So we had these like just, I mean, people had written books and, you know, like textbooks and just like, I mean, the amount of knowledge in front of the camera was, was, was unreal. And and I'm interviewing this one guy and I'm like, I'm taking that approach of like, tell me about like, like I think the topic was like cultural resistance or something in human resources.

00:46:19:00 - 00:46:46:00
John Azoni
And I'm like, Tell me about that. Like, tell me about the topic. You know, like what? Give me some give me some nuggets. Like, you know, how leaders should be think leaders should be think differently about this. And, you know, our our client kept kept chiming with, well, why should someone come to school? And it like it was like this complete like tug of war or eventually I was just kind of like, all right, I guess we're doing that like.

00:46:46:14 - 00:46:48:12
Suzan Brinker
Tie in the.

00:46:48:18 - 00:47:14:14
Suzan Brinker
Exact same experience before with a faculty member where he was so good at talking about health care management and the the real problems that people are solving day and how important it is to solve that. It was so inspiring. And yeah, the client was like, Well, tell us why somebody should come to the program. And he didn't. He didn't know how to talk about that.

00:47:15:03 - 00:47:20:21
Suzan Brinker
It was just not how his brain worked. So that was, yeah, I identify with your story very much.

00:47:21:01 - 00:47:42:12
John Azoni
Yeah. It's like, it's like you could get anyone to say that literally. You could just, like, put the text on a website, you know, on the landing page that says why someone should come. They're like, You're sitting with this genius, you know, leader. You can ask them anything you can get. I mean, literally just walk up to any student on campus and ask, Why should I come to this program?

00:47:42:23 - 00:47:43:16
John Azoni
You know what? Like.

00:47:44:01 - 00:48:02:00
Suzan Brinker
Really, the the art in higher ed marketing is to make it seem like you're not even marketing at all. You know, the feels really invisible because it's just it's storytelling and it's moving people along on their journey towards the next action. We want them to take.

00:48:02:14 - 00:48:32:13
John Azoni
Yeah, and I think we get marketing often gets confused with if we it's it's not what someone's saying, it's who's saying it. So we can take we can take we can take a generic message. But if we have someone of high pedigree saying it, it's going to be effective. And you know, it's just not because because, because, you know, the pedigree doesn't matter to the person watching the video or reading the story.

00:48:32:13 - 00:48:34:14
John Azoni
The story matters and the content.

00:48:34:14 - 00:49:03:22
Suzan Brinker
You know, So I also think, speaking of market research tools that President cabinets should make it a habit of having somebody look at read it and see what's being said about their institution. And instead of dismissing it, of being like, well, those students don't get it or whatever, you know, to really think about, okay, what would it take to move the needle on this thing that people are negatively saying about us or, Oh, people are saying this positive thing about us repeatedly on Reddit.

00:49:03:22 - 00:49:24:03
Suzan Brinker
How can we amplify that and tell stories about it? And I think that's just not been I don't think cabinets have done that or are in the habit of doing exercises like that. And I think in particular, marketing and enrollment apps have an opportunity to really infuse that kind of level of strategic thinking and marketing insight.

00:49:24:17 - 00:49:35:17
John Azoni
Yeah, I love it. Well, I could I could talk about this all day. You're very interesting guest to have. I feel like we we have a lot of, you know, synergy to use a plate out business term.

00:49:37:16 - 00:49:39:00
Suzan Brinker
But on your.

00:49:39:00 - 00:49:40:00
Suzan Brinker
Website or people.

00:49:40:00 - 00:49:41:13
Suzan Brinker
Will know it.

00:49:41:20 - 00:49:53:09
John Azoni
Yeah do not use the word synergy but yeah this has been great. Where can people connect with you if they want to have any questions or want to hire you or what?

00:49:54:08 - 00:50:06:14
Suzan Brinker
Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn apparently is the place to connect with me these days. You find me and Susan Brinker is and Sam, you as an uncle, the essence, as an apple and as a Nancy, I always have to spell my first name of that. Brinker is just fine.

00:50:06:19 - 00:50:09:17
John Azoni
Bringing up just how it's just how it sounds.

00:50:09:17 - 00:50:26:04
Suzan Brinker
So that is my name and you can find me under that on LinkedIn. And you can also email me at Suzanne at Viv hired dot com. That's the idea I and yeah if you do that I will get back to you I'm I'm eternally online.

00:50:27:23 - 00:50:28:12
Suzan Brinker
Yes.

00:50:29:00 - 00:50:34:11
John Azoni
Me too. I have I have like 50 tabs open at any given time.

00:50:34:17 - 00:50:37:20
Suzan Brinker
In my brain and on my laptop. Same app.

00:50:38:02 - 00:50:49:20
John Azoni
Yeah. I have to try so hard to just remove distractions because like, my phone is buzzing and then something on Facebook will buzz. I'm like, if I have to really concentrate, I've got to shut it all off. But yeah, I have to.

00:50:50:09 - 00:50:57:16
Suzan Brinker
Unplug your internet route and that's just seems so radical. I'm like, Yeah, I don't know that I could do it, but maybe.

00:50:57:16 - 00:50:58:00
Suzan Brinker
Yeah.

00:50:59:01 - 00:51:06:02
John Azoni
Well, cool. Thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise with us. And yeah, I look forward to this episode coming out.

00:51:06:17 - 00:51:09:01
Suzan Brinker
Oh my gosh, this was so much fun. Thank you for having me.