Higher Ed Storytelling University

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:28:17
John Azoni
My guest today is Laura Oseni. And yes, we are related. Laura is my wife. Laura Oseni, MSW is the chief clinical director and founder of Sanctuary Services. For the past 15 years. Laura has specialized in trauma informed care. She's nationally certified in EMDR, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, as well as TF CBT, which is trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapy.

00:00:29:00 - 00:00:50:03
John Azoni
And she's also trained in AAC, which is a new term I haven't heard of. I learned that while I was writing this bio, which is attachment, regulation and competency. And on top of that, she is a trauma and resiliency specialist in education and has hands on experience helping communities recover from mass violence incidents. Laura, welcome to the show.

00:00:50:17 - 00:00:51:19
Laura Azoni
Hey, thanks, man.

00:00:52:03 - 00:00:52:17
John Azoni
All right.

00:00:52:17 - 00:00:53:11
Laura Azoni
I'll always be here.

00:00:53:14 - 00:01:04:15
John Azoni
Always good to see you. You know, Yeah. So we've been married almost as long as you've been doing trauma training or trauma stuff. So we've got. We've been married coming up on 15 years.

00:01:04:22 - 00:01:07:16
Laura Azoni
I know. So stuff is the clinical term.

00:01:07:21 - 00:01:33:00
John Azoni
Yeah. For listeners, Laura was the very first fan of the Higher Ed Storytelling University podcast. I think she proofed the first few episodes and then I just keep making more episodes, so. All right. So what we're talking about here is we're talking about storytelling in the context of sensitive subjects. And so I've been looking for an opportunity to get Laura on the show because she's a super good at what she does, and I'm always just super proud of her.

00:01:33:00 - 00:01:55:00
John Azoni
And I always want other people to to learn from her. So this is the topic we landed on. We're talking about storytelling with sensitive subjects. How do we hold both the needs of the marketing and enrollment departments with, you know, the fact that we don't want to do harm to this person who's opening up to us. We want to respect what they're sharing, not make them feel like they have to tell us more than they're comfortable.

00:01:55:08 - 00:02:19:10
John Azoni
All of these storytelling ethics kind of come into play. So like a real common scenario is the first generation college students. So listeners of this podcast will probably relate to that. There's a lot of desire to tell that kind of story. And so but maybe they're going to college just, you know, for the first time because they grew up poor and they might not be comfortable having, you know, a video on the Internet exposing their whole family like that.

00:02:19:19 - 00:02:39:13
John Azoni
Maybe you're talking to a student who had like mental health challenges or a survivor of abuse or has a disability. All these things can like we can use them in in marketing enrollment to over to show like how challenges were overcome in show transformation. But they're also personal and difficult to talk about. So not wanting to exploit that struggle for marketing purposes.

00:02:39:13 - 00:03:05:02
John Azoni
So that's the tension we're balancing here. And on this topic, Laura, you always talk about this idea of both slash and both And and I think we have a Christmas ornament that says both end. And so I think that's the overarching theme of this whole issue. Yes, the marketing department enrollment, we have marketing enrollment needs and at the same time, we have to hold this person's, you know, sensitive, you know, important story.

00:03:05:12 - 00:03:07:11
John Azoni
Tell us about the concept of both and.

00:03:07:23 - 00:03:28:04
Laura Azoni
Sure. Yeah. That Christmas ornament was actually just an extra from something I handed out at an organization I was serving when I had resigned from that space. And so it was something to just leave with them. It was something I referenced a lot, this concept of both and and it is exactly as you said. It's the idea of holding both.

00:03:28:04 - 00:04:01:11
Laura Azoni
It's when two or more things can be true, whether they're conflicting or not. You can have, you know, in higher ed, you can have fundraising needs and organizational goals that are more academic and at the same time care about the people you are working with or coming alongside or interviewing. And you know, on the other side of the stories and the testimonials you're likely creating, someone can want to share their story and have apprehensions and have, you know, some activation come up as they're remembering certain pieces of it.

00:04:01:21 - 00:04:26:02
Laura Azoni
And so it's just this concept that really applies to so many different circumstance entities, whether you're recovering from trauma or whether you're stepping out into transition in a new, you know, college educational social experience, it's just this idea that you don't have to choose one side of where you're at and you don't have to choose one side of where you're going and where your goals are going to land.

00:04:26:10 - 00:04:40:22
Laura Azoni
It's this this freedom and this empowerment that comes from naming your thoughts and your critiques and your questions holistically and with this idea of both and love it.

00:04:41:05 - 00:05:00:15
John Azoni
So I remember the exact moment when you saw your life sort of transition, your career transition into social work. And when you and I were dating, we're sitting on the couch and we were watching Teen Mom season one of Teen. So tell us tell us the story about how Teen Mom led you to social work.

00:05:00:19 - 00:05:24:01
Laura Azoni
Yes. So Teen Mom was such a great show. You think that Teen Mom led me to social work? But I actually think it wasn't that episode. I have a memory of being four years old where I started considering where I really just gained awareness of the fact that others have a lifestyle that varies for mine and that others have needs that vary from mine.

00:05:24:01 - 00:05:46:00
Laura Azoni
And I think I knew at a very young age that I was called to be a part of that, of naming those needs, helping to support those. The gaps and accessing whatever is needed to have those needs met. And I'll never forget, I was watching one of those commercials, the kind of come across the screen, and it was showing hunger in a third world country.

00:05:46:00 - 00:06:14:21
Laura Azoni
And I remember just begging my dad to donate to it. Like I had no idea there were kids that could not access food in that way. And, you know, for whatever his own opinions and convictions and reasons were, he was not going to give to that particular organization. And I was devastated. I mean, it probably was like 2 hours, but it felt like two months that I was just advocating for the needs of these children who I don't even know were they actors were.

00:06:15:06 - 00:06:38:23
Laura Azoni
I have no idea. But it hit me really hard. And I always had a really, like large awareness that people are on different paths that often, you know, collide eventually. And so I thought that my own personal story, I thought that meant that I was probably going to adopt someday as a mom. And you know that as someone that dated me, I didn't even really want to see unless you were open to fostering or adopting.

00:06:39:12 - 00:06:41:18
John Azoni
So box checked?

00:06:41:21 - 00:07:00:00
Laura Azoni
Yeah. So. So I thought that's what it meant. But then when we were dating and I, you know, college for me was a whole experience of changing my mind a million times and how I wanted to graduate and what degree I wanted to land on. I had this bachelor's in psychology that I didn't know what I wanted to do with at that point.

00:07:00:00 - 00:07:26:16
Laura Azoni
And we were watching this Teen Mom episode and the very first season had this couple on there, Tyler and Caitlin, who I've never been associated with professionally, but they had been sharing that they were receiving support through an agency that was local to us at the time. It was in Madison Heights, Michigan, Bethany Christian Services and I had known a friend who worked there, and I was just immediately interested like, maybe this is something I can do with my degree.

00:07:26:16 - 00:08:05:08
Laura Azoni
I don't know if I want to go to grad school or not, but I know that I could be of some service in this way. So I was just really moved. As moved by their story, I was moved that they were local and that there was possibility for a true action based response. And, you know, I always thought that possibly my heart would lead to me being an adoptive mom someday and really started to transfer and transform into this professional role for me, where I then got my first out of college job at this agency, Bethany Christian Services, and I was foster care adoption worker, an older child adoption worker, and worked in the foster

00:08:05:08 - 00:08:18:20
Laura Azoni
care system for many years from that point. And it really became this starting place in my adulthood and my, you know, my vocational calling where I just grew from there.

00:08:19:07 - 00:08:41:21
John Azoni
Yeah. And I remember you had a boss that was very vocal about the fact that you should not have been hired by the nursing services. She loved to rub that in your face because they never hire people with, quote unquote, just a bachelor's in psychology. But yeah, by the grace of God, you got hired. And then she loved to remind you about the fact that you shouldn't have been there, but she was the reason that you were there.

00:08:42:09 - 00:09:02:15
Laura Azoni
Yeah. Oh, bless her. Yes. She had a lot going on. And she, you know, on paper, she's probably correct. Like I was just told many times, you have no experience in my head. I'm like, I've been preparing for this since I was four years old, but I did have a lot to learn. And I think that's like, if you don't start somewhere, how do you learn?

00:09:02:15 - 00:09:13:10
Laura Azoni
You know, are the teens I work with who are just looking for coffee shop positions for the first time in their life and can't get hired? That's the same perspective. Like if I don't start somewhere, how do I get the experience? You know.

00:09:13:13 - 00:09:26:17
John Azoni
So. Right. Yeah. Okay. So real quick, I just want to touch on, you know, the most recent path of your career because it kind of relates to higher ed. So, you know, you worked in adoptions, you worked for a residency home. What would you.

00:09:26:17 - 00:09:27:13
Laura Azoni
Call that residential.

00:09:27:13 - 00:09:46:14
John Azoni
Treatment residential treatment facility. That was pretty crazy. And then you end up working in a school based with the hospital system here in Michigan called Henry Ford. Eventually, you landed at Oxford Community Schools. Tell us why you were there, why you were brought on there, and a little bit about your experience in that area.

00:09:46:23 - 00:10:10:17
Laura Azoni
Yeah, well, after my time as a foster care adoption worker, I knew that, you know, I hate to say it, to put it this way, but back then, trauma was a little bit of a trendy word. So the literature that was coming out with a little bit newer and I knew that what I was seeing across the families I was serving was something deeper than just choices they're making.

00:10:11:04 - 00:10:33:02
Laura Azoni
And so I started reading basically everything I could about trauma. And I, you know, I dug into Bruce Perry, the boy that was raised the dog, and just really anything I could glean from and knew eventually at that point that I wanted to go into trauma like I wanted to go into growing my degree and my knowledge base of my experience through graduate school and.

00:10:33:02 - 00:10:34:09
John Azoni
Like trauma specifically.

00:10:34:11 - 00:10:57:20
Laura Azoni
Specifically. And so because of that and because of, you know, where that took me throughout graduate school and my profession, some of which you touched on, I was a little bit known in the metro Detroit area prior to the tragedy in Oxford happening. So in Oxford, Michigan, it's pretty nationally known there was an incident of mass violence where that resulted from gun violence.

00:10:58:06 - 00:11:16:12
Laura Azoni
And so it was a mass shooting in our county of Oakland County in Michigan in a high school. And so when that happened, you know, people don't know what to do. They don't know how to respond. It's it's shocking at so many levels. And so I was working part time in Henry Ford school based and community health program, but I also had a private practice, part time.

00:11:16:12 - 00:11:40:06
Laura Azoni
And I just remember my voicemail maxing out like within a day of parents and my email to of parents just looking for anyone. So my local who said the word trauma in their work, who could possibly help with what to do. And so initially, you know, my private practice as a kind of a side heart project, we raised funds for gaps in coverage, which we can talk more about later.

00:11:40:15 - 00:12:09:16
Laura Azoni
But I had had some scholarship funds and a way to raise funds to support trauma therapy needs from that incident. So I had been responding really right away. And then eventually, when the school district had coordinated with some federal response support, they had created a couple positions to bring into the district for some more ongoing recovery support. So I was hired and of course, decided to accept the first recovery coordinator position for the district.

00:12:09:22 - 00:12:15:20
Laura Azoni
And so I served there for 19 months and it was gorgeous and challenging.

00:12:15:20 - 00:12:21:13
John Azoni
And what do you mean by gorgeous? Because you use that term a lot to describe the work that.

00:12:21:13 - 00:12:48:01
Laura Azoni
You do everything. I think there are some things so holy and sacred and beautiful about the unwanted, unwarranted, shocking human experience of the aftermath of trauma. I think it is the resiliency you see in people, and I don't ever use the word resiliency lightly. I think sometimes people talk about how resilient children and families are in a very minimizing way.

00:12:48:08 - 00:13:18:18
Laura Azoni
But the resiliency that one witnesses through the aftermath of mass violence and trauma in general, the gifts and awareness would evolve from the process of a human's healing. It's beautiful. It's constantly just puts me in a position of being awestruck when I get to witness the aftermath of these experiences. The healing of these experiences is something I often talk about is how many of us know that there's ripple effects to trauma, but we don't often talk about the ripple effects to healing.

00:13:19:00 - 00:13:40:23
Laura Azoni
And I think that when you are on the side of recovery and you, because you haven't been in that experience of trauma, are able to walk alongside people in recovery, you get to see those ripple effects of healing where many others don't. They're there for a quick response and they're on to the next thing or, you know, they read it in the news and that's it.

00:13:40:23 - 00:14:07:18
Laura Azoni
That's the impacts that it had in their life. And so when I see the word gorgeous, I am not saying that trauma was going to I am not saying there's anything positive about an experience like that. What I am saying is that part of my experience in responding in recovery has just given me more hope for humanity. And then there were other parts that were very stressful and very challenging and systematically frustrating.

00:14:08:03 - 00:14:23:08
Laura Azoni
And I think that's really common whenever you have various pieces of a traumatic event like what occurred in Oxford and also what occurs in mass violence. Regardless, mass violence is just a different monster.

00:14:23:08 - 00:14:46:23
John Azoni
And unfortunately, some of those students experienced that incident of violence at Oxford High School and then graduated and went to Michigan State University and there was a shooting there. So, you know, you think that this will never happen to me even once and then here it happens. And then you go to a college where you're like, okay, that's behind me, and then it happens again.

00:14:47:06 - 00:14:51:03
John Azoni
I know you were kind of involved in the MSU, you know, recovery a little bit.

00:14:51:08 - 00:15:10:05
Laura Azoni
Well, initially, just with the overlap there in my role and you know, there's only so much I can say about it. However, if I'm remembering correctly, I think it was about 32 kids and a graduated from, you know, being at Oxford during that incident of mass violence and then had gone on to their freshman year at MSU. And I learned a lot from that.

00:15:10:05 - 00:15:32:22
Laura Azoni
Honestly, I will never quote statistics to aid in a possible sense of comfort to anyone. Again, something we said prior to that was like, Oh my goodness. But statistically, for this to have happened in the first place, let alone for it to ever happen again. Well, for 32 of our kids, it did happen again. And also there was some overlap from other communities.

00:15:32:22 - 00:15:56:18
Laura Azoni
There were a couple students at MSU who had been in other states while in their high school experienced an incident of mass violence. And so I'll never say that again. Is it still statistically low that that would occur? Yes. Does that bring any importance to the cuts? No. You know, so I learned a lot from that. You know, I already knew I'm never never to promise safety and to hopefully just increase the sense of safety.

00:15:56:18 - 00:16:02:09
Laura Azoni
But yeah, there is a place for assistance and then there's that time when they're just completely unhelpful. So.

00:16:02:20 - 00:16:34:00
John Azoni
I mean, obviously those 32 students are bringing a massive load of trauma into their college experience, and that's kind of what we're talking about, You know, in these stories that we tell, we're not usually telling like marketing stories that involve like, you know, really detailed trauma, you know, experiences and things like that. But you can just get a sense for like the mental, like load of students coming into college their first year, the stories that they do bring with them and how sensitive, you know, sometimes we need to be whether we're telling their story or not.

00:16:34:09 - 00:16:58:20
Laura Azoni
Yeah, I think that what's important to note is that the timing of something like Oxford also came right after the pandemic. So these kids already had a large mental load of just adjustment and transition. And, you know, different ways to engage with their support systems, you know, virtually versus not. Yes. And then they're experiencing what is a quote unquote, normal transition to college.

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:26:21
Laura Azoni
And that mental load just continuously is burdened. But I think another thing to note is just the different levels of trauma that come from an experience like that or really, really any experience. There are direct, more acute trauma, There's more complex trauma. So perhaps instances across many years or various instances of trauma across a time, because these kids and these families and these people, they have other stuff going on, too.

00:17:26:21 - 00:17:45:19
Laura Azoni
It's not like none of those kids in that school experienced a tumultuous divorce or, you know, the loss of a sibling before possibly or, you know, there was just so many things that touched some kids have that that anniversary date of the shooting as their birthday. You know and I mean, there's there's so many aspects of it. So you have direct acute trauma.

00:17:45:19 - 00:18:11:21
Laura Azoni
You have more complex trauma. And acute trauma touches. And then there's institutional and systematic trauma. What it does to that whole place and all those positions on the hierarchy there, then you have secondary. If vicarious trauma, that's where you know, you weren't there and yet you're working with or coming alongside or someone you love or know was there and therefore you're feeling the effects of that trauma just from being in relationship with these people or in the neighborhood.

00:18:12:03 - 00:18:39:17
Laura Azoni
And then there's also traumatic grief, which is no difference. So there's the direct trauma from the direct impact, and then there's traumatic grief from just all that grief and loss that comes from it. Whether or not you lost someone directly close to you, you know or not, you know, through death or violence or whatever. So I think it's just so important to recognize that while sometimes the responses to trauma, the best thing to do is to kind of go back to baseline and keep it simple.

00:18:39:17 - 00:18:48:13
Laura Azoni
The effects of trauma are so complex and really can be coming from various different levels, and it's really important to identify and note that.

00:18:48:21 - 00:19:09:21
John Azoni
Yeah, when we're making a video or we're interviewing someone for an article or something like that, there is this sense that like the interviewer is sort of playing the role of a storyteller, but also a therapist. You know, you're sort of like trying to be very skillful in getting them to open up. Maybe it's not even a sensitive subject or there wasn't any trauma involved.

00:19:09:21 - 00:19:36:07
John Azoni
It's just like, Hey, I had a great experience and here's why. You know, the job of the interviewer is still to like, dig around and kind of probe and try to get them to open up a little bit and kind of come alive. But when you have someone in front of you with a heavy story that you're holding because obviously, you know, you're working one on one with survivors of trauma a lot, what are a few major things that you keep in mind in getting this person to open up about their experience in a way that they're comfortable?

00:19:36:19 - 00:19:58:00
Laura Azoni
Yeah, First of all, zero pressure for anyone in that role to be a therapist, just to remind yourself that you're not. And also they're probably not expecting you to be right because a therapist actually wouldn't do this type of testimonial often. And so, yeah, just zero pressure there. But I hear and respect and resonate with what you're saying.

00:19:58:00 - 00:20:27:07
Laura Azoni
You want to be creating this sense of safety and you also want to encourage transparency for the common goal of everyone, including the person you're interviewing. And so, yeah, a few things that come to mind are, number one, just asking that question in the first place, putting yourself in a position of learning. So not going in, you know, knowing all the things you think you know, even if it's just about setting up a camera or whatever, you know, we all find confidence in leaning into what we're good at.

00:20:27:15 - 00:20:51:05
Laura Azoni
But that position of learning is so calming for people. When you say like, oh, you know, I read the notes of your story and I just like, I don't know anything about this. I'm just really honored to to hear from you and to ask a question not to be crying, but with this genuine interest of I don't know and like, thank you, this interest in this gratitude, I don't know.

00:20:51:05 - 00:21:08:14
Laura Azoni
I'm in a position of learning because you have a level of experience that regardless of how long I've been working in this institution, I don't have. And so that just creates such a sense of safety when you're putting yourself in a position of learning. The other thing that comes to mind is having grace for others as well as yourself.

00:21:08:18 - 00:21:25:11
Laura Azoni
So while you're in the midst of that position of learning so you know, if something happens where, you know, you just a couple of minutes ago said, I love it, well, actually, I don't love it when we're talking about mass violence. Right. People say phrases all the time that they're like, oh, my gosh, that was so dumb. Why did I say that?

00:21:25:20 - 00:21:43:08
Laura Azoni
But you could just name that instead of making. It was a weird thing that puts this dissonance between you and the person you're talking with. You can just say, that was like the dumbest thing I ever kind of that When I work with survivors of gun violence, I'm often hearing phrases. They do it too, like, Oh, just shoot me an email.

00:21:43:15 - 00:22:02:10
Laura Azoni
Well, like, right, The word shoot is so and so activating, you know, or, oh, shot myself in the foot or whatever. There's so many phrases that you don't think about that you might in real time either be unaware of or all of a sudden have this enlightenment of like that was the dumbest thing I've got up at her side right now.

00:22:02:21 - 00:22:20:07
Laura Azoni
Just say it. Just say like, that was so stupid place. Forgive me, like, so dumb. Let me rephrase that, because your humanness and acknowledging your humanness is just going to be honoring their humanness and they might say, Oh my gosh, I don't care. Or thank you. That's like amazing that you that you just responded that way, you know?

00:22:20:15 - 00:22:38:05
Laura Azoni
So it's just I would put that out there. It's just having grief for yourself as well as the person. And also you can also start with that. Like it's my intention to make sure that we are really supportive and sensitive. So if I say anything insensitive, I don't know. Notice just tell me I can take it, I can handle it.

00:22:38:12 - 00:22:46:10
Laura Azoni
I'm always learning. So those two things really go together. They may not correct you just because you said that it doesn't affect them as much.

00:22:46:23 - 00:23:05:14
John Azoni
Yeah, I think setting expectations is really smart and I've learned as a as a videographer that that is super crucial. It can help you get the result that you want. Sometimes when I'm saying like, say we're just telling like a normal student success story, I'll get on the phone with someone in a pre-interview and just say, Here's what makes like a good one of these stories.

00:23:05:14 - 00:23:28:20
John Azoni
Like if there's a kind of not just you saying, I like the school or five stars, but like maybe you have a personal thread that connects to it or says something else that's a little deeper. And then they usually go, Oh, okay, I get I get what you're after. And then they kind of start telling me the real thing and the stories that I tell will get into an example and a little bit of people that have experienced, you know, pretty massive long term trauma.

00:23:29:02 - 00:23:43:21
John Azoni
And then I'm calling them for their pre-interview and they don't know me. And I was just come out and say that I'm like, Look, you don't know me. I'm like this random guy that you were told is going to make a video of you and yeah. And so now I'm I'm tasked with like being like, Hi, nice to meet you.

00:23:44:02 - 00:23:51:00
John Azoni
Tell me all the darkest moments of your life. So, yeah, I think you're right. Just naming that upfront is is huge.

00:23:51:12 - 00:24:10:10
Laura Azoni
Yeah, naming it upfront. And then I'm everything that came to mind is just having a willingness to pivot. So you guys are creatives, right? If you're in a marketing department or you're contracting with the university in higher ed, you're some level of creativity within you. So you know the structure is important and preparedness, right, To have some sense of safety.

00:24:10:10 - 00:24:29:23
Laura Azoni
But married with like a few ounces of flexibility and creativity. So if something comes up where you're on the phone with that person and they're saying, Oh, okay, I see what you're going for. But they didn't realize that before or whatever. Maybe you need to pivot. Maybe you need to say, Hey, I have a 4:00 open. Do you want to get your mind around that a little bit, or should we just go with it?

00:24:30:10 - 00:25:02:03
Laura Azoni
Just kind of having a little bit of flexibility in the midst of that structure is going to create a sense of safety. The other thing I would advise is just realizing two things. Part one realizing that trauma truly does touch everything and so does transition and change and adjustments specially for college kids. So even if you're sharing a quote unquote normal college success story, college kids go through so much, it's often the first time they've been separated from their, you know, whatever their family unit was.

00:25:02:03 - 00:25:20:00
Laura Azoni
And the food is different in the cafeteria. And, you know, just like there's so many different aspects of that transition. And transition is hard for anyone, let alone people who are likely still in the midst of some course of development. And so just remembering that trauma and transition touches so much and so, you know, the body keeps the score.

00:25:20:01 - 00:25:38:19
Laura Azoni
There's that famous book out right now. There's attachment stuff coming out, there's somatic body experiences coming up. And so just thinking about the environment, their environment, your environment, sometimes adding a simple phrase of do you feel comfortable where you're talking right now, even if it's virtual? I've had so many people be like, Oh, actually let me close the door.

00:25:39:00 - 00:25:59:15
Laura Azoni
And it's enhanced that interview atmosphere, you know, or I actually do keep hearing this. Well, let me get my dog out of the room distracting me or whatever it is, you know, or let me pick up my dog because I guidelines of safety. And so that's part one. Part two is just this cool position that you're in to really lend hope to the person that you are meeting with.

00:25:59:15 - 00:26:21:23
Laura Azoni
So, you know, if they're talking about a story that they might be on the other side of or might not be, you're in this position that you know, you're not in their experience. So they may have a struggle or they may have a challenge in remembering what was before that experience. They may experience challenge and even seeing what may come after that experience.

00:26:22:05 - 00:26:40:21
Laura Azoni
And you're not in the midst of that. And so you have this cool position where while you're thinking about enhancing comfort and a sense of safety, you're also able to lend hope. Like you can see them get through this video because you've done it a million times. They can't see that. And so I think, you know, just saying like what you're doing is great.

00:26:40:21 - 00:27:01:12
Laura Azoni
And also this happens all the time. And also in 20 minutes you're going to have already done this. This is pretty cool like that. You can be empowering and lend a lens that is maybe cast wider from that creative, intricate perspective, but also that bird's eye view that they don't have. And it can really latch on to a sense of safety through that as well.

00:27:01:23 - 00:27:16:02
John Azoni
And I think just as you're talking, I'm thinking about the book that you read and strongly suggested that I read called The Anxious Generation. And it's actually a very good book. You know, I'm like waking up in the middle and I can't sleep. And then I just, like, start reading this.

00:27:16:17 - 00:27:19:23
Laura Azoni
I'm aware. I'm aware because you're waking me up, you know.

00:27:21:07 - 00:27:46:14
John Azoni
Like, But yeah, so this book is called The Anxious Generation, really, I mean, especially if you have kids, but anyone in higher ed needs to read this book because it's talking all about the environment that Gen Z grew up in and the dramatic shift that happened, you know, in technology and in their lives. As we went to a more phone based, you know, childhood instead of like a real play based childhood, like free play.

00:27:46:19 - 00:28:07:06
John Azoni
And so college campuses are obviously swarming with Gen Z students and the amount of like mental health services it said in this book is like, I forget what the year was. Maybe it was like 2015 or something where like the amount of taxation on or like the amount the mental health resources on campus were like overwhelmed was like, you know, like 2015.

00:28:07:06 - 00:28:25:15
John Azoni
It's like then all these kids coming in and it's just like everyone's anxious and everyone's depressed and everyone needs help. So, so even just like no matter what the story, I think it's important to keep in mind that there probably is some elements of like fear, like what is this video going to look like? What is this article going going to say about me?

00:28:25:15 - 00:28:39:18
John Azoni
Am I going to do this good enough and made it look stupid? You know, all of that. Anyways, I just just as a side note, like, I think that's a really good book for people to understand the depth of like, you know, emotion and thing that students are bringing into college campuses.

00:28:40:00 - 00:29:02:13
Laura Azoni
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, mental health services have been overwhelmed. I mean, COVID alone. And then in our county, we've had now two instances of mass violence. But nationwide, there's been a literal shortage of clinical social workers. I mean, you'll see job postings just Google it. And they've been out there just hanging out, hoping someone graduates the third degree because there's really no one to hire.

00:29:02:20 - 00:29:04:19
Laura Azoni
So and then it is a true crisis.

00:29:05:22 - 00:29:32:18
John Azoni
So what are some practical ways? Because the other part about, you know, the role of marketing in college higher ed is sourcing stories. So what would be a way if we were wanting to source stories of transformation that maybe involve some struggle, What would be maybe a way to invite people to share their story and to feel safe enough to like, open up because, you know, it's not like I don't think that most people are going to be like raising their hand to be like, Yeah, let me tell you.

00:29:33:04 - 00:29:33:14
Laura Azoni
Right?

00:29:33:15 - 00:29:40:06
John Azoni
Let me tell you all the darkest moments in my life. And now I'm here on this college campus trying to become a better person or something.

00:29:40:21 - 00:30:10:13
Laura Azoni
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, where I go to immediately is your college's counseling department. If you don't have one, that's a problem. And also that would to me, if I was just in a marketing position where I wasn't clinically connected, I would go through those experts. I would ask, you know, you don't want to grab someone in a damaging space where they're, you know, just ruminating on their struggles and they're not in a good position to to be expressing, probably most likely.

00:30:10:23 - 00:30:32:23
Laura Azoni
But the counseling department might have a good handle, good perspective on who have had a true journey, where this may be the next or a possible step in their healing and development. They might think that it could be a good possible next step for someone to share their story as a next place of empowerment and healing for them.

00:30:32:23 - 00:30:56:14
Laura Azoni
And they would probably be able to, of course, with all the releases find and compliant forms and whatever else, I think that that could be a good partnership for marketing departments and higher ed to also have some security for on your end for like where are these kids coming from? And, you know, I just want to ensure that we're not doing further harm and that we can feel really open and excited about sharing how they've overcome.

00:30:56:14 - 00:31:03:06
Laura Azoni
You can have kind of that buffer and that safety net in place for someone who knows them more intimately. Possibly.

00:31:03:17 - 00:31:29:06
John Azoni
Yeah, exactly. So I wanted to touch on one of the moments that kind of inspired me to get to you on this podcast was when. So I for people listening, I have a non higher ed client called the Joseph Project and they they connect human trafficking survivors to pro-bono attorneys to get their records expunged. You know, they, they get charges on their record from being victimized and they need advocates in the court to say, hey, no, this this person was a victim, not a criminal in the process.

00:31:29:06 - 00:31:51:07
John Azoni
I mean, those are some of the most I cannot believe, you know, the drama of what those women have been through. And that's where it's uncomfortable for me to like, meet them for the media for the first time. And, you know, more than anyone, Laura, that I'm not the best with my words, not the most validating. I'm not a you know, I've got a lot of stuff to work on.

00:31:52:17 - 00:31:53:13
Laura Azoni
Perfect.

00:31:53:15 - 00:32:05:20
John Azoni
Yeah. So, so at one point recently, I had a call coming up with a survivor with a particularly kind of intense story, and I asked if you would do the pre-interview and then just come on this shoot this production with me. Oh.

00:32:06:10 - 00:32:07:08
Laura Azoni
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:08:01 - 00:32:26:00
John Azoni
To do the interview. But tell me a little bit. And I guess what I'm getting at is what I really loved is how guarded this woman was. I mean, she was super guarded. She had been burned by a lot of people taking advantage of all this stuff. Here we are, a couple of strangers talking to her. She got to tell her story, too.

00:32:26:06 - 00:32:49:02
John Azoni
And you just had a way about you in the way that you talked to her in a tone of voice and just like really like the word that sticks out to me. It's just like validation of her garden, this and like, validation of all that she went through. I just felt like she just melted and like, she was like, Oh, this girl, this woman gets it, you know, I can trust this person.

00:32:49:09 - 00:32:58:01
John Azoni
So what was it like from your experience with conversations with her? Like what? What do you think is key in those moments to, like, get someone to be like, get their guard to come down a little bit?

00:32:58:11 - 00:33:22:21
Laura Azoni
Yeah. First of all, I hope that's how she felt. She was an honor to know. One of the things that came across to me is initially to not assume that you know the other person's agenda. So I think if I'm remembering correctly from that initial call, you had kind of an outline of what was going to happen and she kind of came with some fears and concerns before we even jumped into it.

00:33:22:21 - 00:33:44:12
Laura Azoni
And so there's that pivoting again, that openness to that structure with mixed with flexibility. We had to really kind of like honor and let her know, hey, if you have an experience that is different from what we're expecting, like you're the expert of your experience. And so we just took the space to kind of receive it right? And just say, Whoa, thank you for telling us where you're at.

00:33:44:12 - 00:33:59:07
Laura Azoni
And, you know, I think at one point she even said, Can I know what you do have on paper about me? And we were like, yeah, let us look. I don't know, you know, And so as I'm moving on here, wrong, so we change it and, you know, protect whatever I need extra protecting. And so I think that's the first thing.

00:33:59:07 - 00:34:23:03
Laura Azoni
And what continues from that is just to consistently honor consent from the very beginning. So we already had her consent to do this interview. Right. You invited me in. I think what what I notice right away is that she, rightfully so, was going to need to continuously give consent across the whole process. Right.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:23:11
John Azoni
Total.

00:34:23:11 - 00:34:48:16
Laura Azoni
And and we were going to need to continuously honor and or pivot from whatever consent she gave or did not. And so as soon as we were able to say to her, hey, that's a goal of ours too, and we are going to check in with you every which way. And if there is something that you say or that you're uncomfortable with later, just tell us, You know, I think thing let's make sure we have what we have on paper is accurate.

00:34:49:00 - 00:35:15:08
Laura Azoni
Okay. So you gave consent to do that Now that you know what's on paper, do you still give consent now? And we're not asking that directly, but you're constantly reassuring. You're constantly assessing her comfortability with what she's giving and you're constantly reassuring that you are going to keep assessing and checking in. And so, you know, she was able to say specific request, like, I don't want anyone else acting out the B-roll in my video.

00:35:15:08 - 00:35:17:14
Laura Azoni
It's very important that it's only me.

00:35:17:21 - 00:35:29:06
John Azoni
Yeah, she had some previous videographer that like, Yeah, use like stock footage or something that was like pretending to be her and she was like, really put off by that. So she was, Yeah. Making sure I wasn't going to do that.

00:35:29:11 - 00:35:49:09
Laura Azoni
Yeah. But like you've never would have thought of that. You would have been like, whatever is creative and respectful. But that's something that's important to her. And which leads us to the next piece that I would recommend is having along with concerns and checking in on that all throughout, making sure nothing's changed from when they first signed on and from after the video is complete.

00:35:49:10 - 00:36:16:06
Laura Azoni
You know, after their viewing of it, also maintaining a sense of empowerment for them. So if that's important to her and what's going to make her feel empowered is like it's her or no one in that video, because that is her story of her overcoming, it's her sharing of it, then that's a non-negotiable. And so consistently honoring consent, consistently meeting her or the person with any opportunity is to further empower them.

00:36:16:17 - 00:36:35:04
Laura Azoni
And again, just asking them, it's showing transparency on your end, which will invite transparency on their end. So if you have a question, you can say, I'm just going to ask this because like I don't know, you can quote unquote play dumb, but I don't really like that phrase because it really is just maintaining that position of learning.

00:36:35:10 - 00:36:57:20
Laura Azoni
If I'm just going to ask this and you just tell me like you can say, pass any time, and when they know they can say that path, you're being transparent with like, I'm just going to try in my humanness to meet you as you are, you know, extend yourself and open yourself up in your humanness. And so, you know, it's not an asking that comes from prying and clawing.

00:36:57:20 - 00:37:24:07
Laura Azoni
They're regarding down. It's it's an asking from that position of learning like I do care. And so I'm just going to ask and remember, you can always pass it. I feel counterintuitive because you're kind of like, I don't want to pass any of the story. Yeah, but, but it will hurt more if you don't create that space for you won't get as much as you think you might if you lean more into controlling versus gracious.

00:37:24:16 - 00:37:46:05
John Azoni
And and on that campaign for the GSA project, we do a year end campaign every year, kind of like telling the stories of the previous year. And usually there's several survivor stories. And this year there was supposed to be two, and the second one was a perfect example of that continuing to honor consent and pivoting. She was located in Houston, Texas.

00:37:46:10 - 00:38:05:13
John Azoni
So I had coordinated with our production team in Houston. They were going to be there on the day I had someone coming from 3 hours away to be interviewed. I had someone helped us get the location. So she was kind of like basically there was a lot of stuff that went into this. And then she ended up like the day before, like canceling and saying she had to reschedule it.

00:38:05:14 - 00:38:25:09
John Azoni
She said you had to work thing come up. So we moved all of that, like got everyone transferred over to the new day, took a lot of back and forth. And then as the day approached, when that rescheduled production was supposed to happen, I wasn't hearing from her and I was getting the feeling that something had shifted and and we were talking to you and you were like, you got to give her an out.

00:38:25:09 - 00:38:42:09
John Azoni
It sounds like she's not ready to tell her story. And I did. And I was like, Hey, if you're not ready to do this, like, it's okay, we'll figure it out. And she was like, Yeah, I'm not I'm not ready. And She didn't show up. We were like, All right, well, the crew's going to be there because we were filming for some other stuff, so it wasn't a total wash.

00:38:42:13 - 00:38:57:20
John Azoni
We had other stuff to do that day, but we were like, We'll expect you at 1:00. If you don't come. We'll wait around for an hour or so. And then if not, that's okay. And so she didn't come in and we had to pivot the entire campaign because we we had one less story than we were planning on.

00:38:57:20 - 00:39:04:10
John Azoni
So. So, yeah, I mean, that stuff happens. That was the first time that's happened to me where someone was just like, Sorry, I'm not going to do this.

00:39:04:19 - 00:39:25:05
Laura Azoni
Mm Yeah. I think what you're getting at is you saw a lot of warning signs that something wasn't right. And I think the impossible, like initial inclination would be to increase your control and your communication. Like, I got to get that nailed down. This is like getting kind of scary. It's affecting a lot of people. But you were counterintuitive.

00:39:25:05 - 00:39:44:01
Laura Azoni
You took a step back. You really examined what could possibly be going on here for this person. And it was better because it wasn't right in the first place. Right. And so some of those warning signs can be, like you said, someone not responding to you. Right. And we don't know. Is it is it a chaotic life? Is it Internet access and that we don't know.

00:39:44:01 - 00:40:04:00
Laura Azoni
So we don't want to assume they're not ready. They may be really let down. Like, what the heck? I've been thinking about this forever and you just, like, canceled on me like I got three Ubers to get here or whatever it is, you know? And so we don't know about that. Like, we want to be gracious, but also we can have some, some boundaries, a warning sign and be not responding.

00:40:04:00 - 00:40:23:23
Laura Azoni
Another warning sign is lots and lots of requests. So what we know is when anxiety increases, our desire to control the situation increases. So on both ends, right? So you are getting anxious when that person was not responding and initially you were like, oh my gosh, I got to get control of this. This is getting kind of anxious.

00:40:23:23 - 00:40:41:16
Laura Azoni
I have a lot of things in place. Also, when you get a lot of requests from someone on the other side, they're trying to gain control over a lot of unpredictability. So you as a marketing person, as someone in the you know, in higher ed, you can just name entertainment. We say that phrase a lot in my field.

00:40:42:00 - 00:41:07:18
Laura Azoni
So I think it came from Daniel SIEGEL. But we say name entertainment. And you can just say, hey, I'm wondering, is this feeling a little overwhelming or ambiguous? Maybe I can provide some more insight into what the day will most likely look like? Likely is a great word to use with sensitive stories, because we can't always say exactly how a situation will play out, but we can frame the day with as much as is likely to occur.

00:41:08:05 - 00:41:25:22
Laura Azoni
So with some structure and flexibility, like we said before, to aid in that predictable audience safety, those are some things that might help when you see those warning signs. And then you sometimes just have to say it's okay if the timing is off. It's not the right time, it's not the right time. And that doesn't mean that it might not be the right time.

00:41:25:22 - 00:41:30:09
Laura Azoni
Later, you want a story that is in the right timing or it loses value.

00:41:31:01 - 00:41:48:20
John Azoni
Yeah, likely. Likely is a good one. I remember, you know, we fostered children and our foster daughter had to go to a doctor's appointment that she was really nervous about and the birth mom was going to be there. And they were just like some unknowns. You were telling her these things to like, calm her down and then what you had told her ended up like, out of your control.

00:41:48:20 - 00:41:57:14
John Azoni
Didn't happen that way. You were just like, Oh my gosh. I told her it was going to look like this. And then the appointment went this other direction. So that's yeah, we're that.

00:41:57:14 - 00:41:59:17
Laura Azoni
Like, so many lessons. Yeah. Mm hmm.

00:42:00:04 - 00:42:24:18
John Azoni
Okay. This is my my last question. So how can marketers help someone feel empowered by sharing their story rather than feeling vulnerable or regretful after? Like, how how can we sort of, like shift the power dynamic to that person and help them feel empowered rather than I just gave part of myself to the marketing or enrollment department and now I feel weird about it.

00:42:25:07 - 00:42:46:18
Laura Azoni
Yeah, it's so mythic, but so easy to overlook, right? Every person should have a way to contact act the professional who is responsible for the testimonial or the story after the interview and after the publicity of it. I think that causes a lot of anxiety on your end, I would guess, because it's like, Well, it's done. What are we going to do if they say blah, blah, blah?

00:42:47:00 - 00:43:11:11
Laura Azoni
Right? But again, it's the respect. It's this mutual human respect that for, you know, it's not just thanks for letting us take whatever we could get from you for our own benefit. It's more of a partnership because hopefully they wouldn't be doing this unless they cared about the school, Right. So or the organization. So it's giving them this way.

00:43:11:11 - 00:43:33:13
Laura Azoni
This continuity of care across all pieces of it, pieces of the project, and again, increasing that sense of safety with that communication. So, you know, if they have a night where they're like, again, you can lean into those skills of they're asking me all these questions and it's already done. Hey, was there a part of this that felt overwhelming or is there a part that you're questioning?

00:43:33:13 - 00:43:52:06
Laura Azoni
Just let me know. I'd love to review it, you know, Or are you interested in some of the feedback that comes after you share? Because some people, you know, have that Like that remorse comes from, oh my gosh, did people think that was stupid or did it not even help? Because I really wanted to be, you know, contributing to the campus goals.

00:43:52:06 - 00:43:59:20
Laura Azoni
And so, yeah, that continuity of care through some communication, the option of communication would be really pivotal.

00:44:00:12 - 00:44:03:07
John Azoni
Yeah, that requires that you actually share the video with the person.

00:44:03:07 - 00:44:04:17
Laura Azoni
That video.

00:44:05:10 - 00:44:05:18
Laura Azoni
Basically.

00:44:05:20 - 00:44:06:03
Laura Azoni
I.

00:44:06:13 - 00:44:19:21
John Azoni
Had experience with a college where we did a video for them and then had to ask the subject of the video a separate question. And she's like, By the way, what ever happened to that video? I'm like, You didn't get it. Like, she's like, No, I've never seen it. It's been out for like six months.

00:44:19:21 - 00:44:20:06
Laura Azoni
Yeah.

00:44:20:12 - 00:44:20:23
Laura Azoni
Oh, my gosh.

00:44:20:23 - 00:44:34:20
John Azoni
You know, so probably well-intentioned on the school's part. I know things get really busy, and especially when you're launching a campaign and and stuff like that. But, you know, I just think that's super important to really pay attention to your subjects and at the very least, show them the video before you live.

00:44:35:15 - 00:44:46:08
Laura Azoni
It can feel like another task, but it really is preventative. Would you rather be putting out fires later or would you rather be preventative and have something be as whole as it could be when it's ready to launch?

00:44:46:22 - 00:45:01:09
John Azoni
Yeah. Okay. So wrapping up here, I want you to tell our listeners about sanctuary services and the problem in our society, that sanctuary. Well, because you have sanctuary services with the nonprofit side and then you have your clinical side. Yeah. Anyway, I'll let you tell about it.

00:45:02:13 - 00:45:28:18
Laura Azoni
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, well, you are a big supporter of it and partner in it, so you probably could tell about it. But thanks for the opportunity. So my private practice is called Sanctuary Services, and alongside all of our directs clinical and trauma response, we have a partnership with an organization called Abide Ministries, and we raise fully tax refundable 523 funds.

00:45:28:18 - 00:45:54:08
Laura Azoni
We raise therapy scholarships for trauma therapy. So throughout this work and throughout my career, I just had have experience relationship with clients and patients who need care and can't access it. And I think that your mind easily goes to people in poverty who maybe have Medicaid services and just can't access some specialty services. But it's such a broken system at large.

00:45:54:16 - 00:46:19:01
Laura Azoni
So while insurance can meet a lot of needs, there's often so many gaps in coverage. So whether people are not insured or have a coverage like Medicaid, they may also have what the world considers great coverage. Like, you know, any of the common insurances that come to mind and I want to colony out. But what happens is that often those insurance policies come with large deductibles or even co-pays.

00:46:19:01 - 00:46:42:12
Laura Azoni
If you've actually experienced trauma, you have have some new or chronic deficits in your life that have made the ability to pay more complicated. I could go on forever. But the other challenge is that many specialists in our area who are truly trauma trained, who have MDR certification, they are often private pay only because of so many complications with insurance companies.

00:46:42:12 - 00:47:00:17
Laura Azoni
So while my private practice does currently build insurance, we have this partnership, this nonprofit partnership with Allied Ministries to raise trauma therapy scholarships, to cover all those gaps in coverage so that people who are in need of true trauma treatment have equal access to the care that they deserve.

00:47:01:06 - 00:47:15:13
John Azoni
Love it. Yes, that's awesome. And one of the things that you and I talk about and we have, you know, firsthand experience with it is that you have to be extremely rich to get it. Sometimes it's like you have to be really rich to have a mental health crisis and oh.

00:47:15:17 - 00:47:16:00
Laura Azoni
Yes.

00:47:16:02 - 00:47:21:00
John Azoni
And recover smoothly from it because private for specialists is insanely expensive.

00:47:21:00 - 00:47:31:08
Laura Azoni
So yeah, yeah, we had a personal experience in our family where I think initially it was $900 a month and you don't plan for a crisis. So that is what is extra challenging.

00:47:31:14 - 00:47:36:19
John Azoni
Yeah. So where can people find you at your website? Where can people donate if they want to donate to scholarships?

00:47:37:07 - 00:47:58:10
Laura Azoni
Sure, yeah. If you would like to partner with us through financially donating, you can do so at Sanctuary services. Dot org backslash donate. My website is Sanctuary services dot org. I'm Laura Ivany on LinkedIn and I am Laura at Sanctuary Services at Laura Sanctuary Services on Instagram and Facebook.

00:47:58:10 - 00:48:03:21
John Azoni
All right, Awesome. Laura this was great. It's fun to talk to you intellectual way and talk about.

00:48:04:03 - 00:48:04:11
Laura Azoni
Things.

00:48:05:00 - 00:48:08:04
John Azoni
That aren't, you know, logistics and kids and like that.

00:48:08:23 - 00:48:16:07
Laura Azoni
Yeah, that's true. It was actually the first week back to school after, you know, 16 days at home. But who's counting?

00:48:16:23 - 00:48:20:04
John Azoni
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, thanks for coming on the show. Love you.

00:48:20:04 - 00:48:21:06
Laura Azoni
You're welcome. Love you, too.